Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on July 24, 2024, 07:54:03 PMThis motherfucker actually cited conservapedia. I'm done being civil. You're just here to proselytize.

I didn't cite Conservapedia as an authority, I quoted two Jewish Rabbis mentioned on CP who discussed Isaiah 53.

Agree with Reagan. He was a Pro-Life Conservative and a Christian Hero who fought Atheistic Communism. He defeated the Evil Empire, together with Pope John Paul II, without firing a shot. Not perfect, but a good man.

I am here to debate and discuss Atheism vs Theism, and Christianity vis a vis other religions, as per the rules.

You really expect me to read all that!? 🥸

This motherfucker actually cited conservapedia. I'm done being civil. You're just here to proselytize.

Quote from: aitm on July 24, 2024, 07:42:18 PMMeh....the babble also says shrimp, lobsters, oysters are an abomination and I bet you chug em down with little regard for your god. And I am sure if your little sister was raped you would object against gods word that they marry. Yeah....pick one verse for god.....woo-hoo! What a twit

We are Christians and not Jews. Ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic law are not binding on Christians. What is binding on all, especially Christians, as Rabbi Yeshua/Jesus Christ taught is (1) to love God with all one's heart, (2) to love one's neighbor as ourselves, (3) if we wish to be perfect, as Christ taught in His Sermon on the Mount, then to love even our enemies, do good to those who hate us, pray for those who persecute us, bless those who curse us etc, that we may be like God, who makes His Sun shine on the righteous and the wicked alike, and gives rain to the good and the evil alike etc. Christ is not at all concerned about dietary restrictions and the like but uprightness of moral conduct, and especially love of neighbor, the Poor etc. E.g. Mat 25:31-40. God Bless.

And here's the section in part 1 of the article where Louis Lapides specifically mentions reading Isaiah 53 for the first time: https://faithgateway.com/blogs/christian-books/fingerprint-evidence-for-our-messiah-jesus-part-1

QuoteA pastor spoke up. "Do you know of the prophecies about the Messiah?" he asked.

Lapides was taken off guard. "Prophecies?" he said. "I've never heard of them."

The minister startled Lapides by referring to some of the Old Testament predictions. Wait a minute! Lapides thought. Those are my Jewish Scriptures he's quoting! How could Jesus be in there?

When the pastor offered him a Bible, Lapides was skeptical. "Is the New Testament in there?" he asked. The pastor nodded. "OK, I'll read the Old Testament, but I'm not going to open up the other one," Lapides told him.

He was taken aback by the minister's response. "Fine," said the pastor. "Just read the Old Testament and ask the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob — the God of Israel — to show you if Jesus is the Messiah. Because He is your Messiah. He came to the Jewish people initially, and then He was also the Savior of the world."

To Lapides, this was new information. Intriguing information. Astonishing information. So he went back to his apartment, opened the Old Testament to its first book, Genesis, and went hunting for Jesus among words that had been written hundreds of years before the carpenter of Nazareth had ever been born.

"Pierced for Our Transgressions"
"Pretty soon," Lapides told me, "I was reading the Old Testament every day and seeing one prophecy after another. For instance, Deuteronomy talked about a prophet greater than Moses who will come and whom we should listen to. I thought, Who can be greater than Moses? It sounded like the Messiah — Someone as great and as respected as Moses but a greater teacher and a greater authority. I grabbed ahold of that and went searching for Him."

As Lapides progressed through the Scriptures, he was stopped cold by Isaiah 53. With clarity and specificity, in a haunting prediction wrapped in exquisite poetry, here was the picture of a Messiah who would suffer and die for the sins of Israel and the world — all written more than seven hundred years before Jesus walked the earth.

"He was despised and rejected by mankind, a Man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces He was despised, and we held Him in low esteem. Surely He took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered Him punished by God, stricken by Him, and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on Him, and by His wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth; He was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth. By oppression and judgment He was taken away.

Yet who of His generation protested? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people He was punished. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death, though He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth... For He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." – Isaiah 53:3-9, Isaiah 53:12

Instantly Lapides recognized the portrait: this was Jesus of Nazareth!

Now he was beginning to understand the paintings he had seen in the Catholic churches he had passed as a child: the suffering Jesus, the crucified Jesus, the Jesus who he now realized had been "pierced for our transgressions" as he "bore the sin of many."

As Jews in the Old Testament sought to atone for their sins through a system of animal sacrifices, here was Jesus, the ultimate sacrificial lamb of God, who paid for sin once and for all. Here was the personification of God's plan of redemption.

So breathtaking was this discovery that Lapides could only come to one conclusion: it was a fraud! He believed that Christians had rewritten the Old Testament and twisted Isaiah's words to make it sound as if the prophet had been foreshadowing Jesus.

Lapides set out to expose the deception. "I asked my stepmother to send me a Jewish Bible so I could check it out myself," he told me. "She did, and guess what? I found that it said the same thing! Now I really had to deal with it."

Meh....the babble also says shrimp, lobsters, oysters are an abomination and I bet you chug em down with little regard for your god. And I am sure if your little sister was raped you would object against gods word that they marry. Yeah....pick one verse for god.....woo-hoo! What a twit.

"That Jesus was crucified [under Pontius Pilate] is as certain as anything historical can ever be" ~ John Dominic Crossan of the Liberal Jesus Seminar.

In another thread, we saw that arguments like the Kalam help show that, of the 10 or so religious claims in the world, only 3, i.e. the monotheistic religions (1) Judaism (2) Christianity and (3) Islam that teach faith in One Almighty God stand the test of time. This thread is to show (1) how one can further eliminate Judaism and Islam, and arrive at the Truth of Christianity, (2) why historical prophecies like Isaiah 53 in 700 BC provide Evidence for the Divine Inspiration of the Holy Bible, and for God's Omniscience. (3) Though Judaism professes to be about 2000 years older than Christianity, there are roughly 100 times more Christians (2.6 BN) than Jews (25 MN) in the world, and part of the reason for that is prophecies like Isaiah 53. Right from New Testament times, many converted on account of them.

Let's quote Isaiah 53, it's the 4th of 4 Suffering Servant passages, and then examine the life testimony of a Jewish scholar quoted in Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ: "Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."(Isaiah 53)

It should be noted also that many even Jewish Rabbis traditionally interpreted/understood this passage in its plain sense, to refer to the Messiah's heroic Sacrifice as the Suffering Servant/Savior of the world.

Quote"(i) 1st Century Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai:
"The meaning of the words 'bruised for our iniquities' [Isaiah 53:5] is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer them for them himself."[8]

(ii) Rabbi Moshe Aschich:
"[our] Rabbis with one voice, accept and affirm the opinion that the Prophet [Isaiah in 53] is speaking of king Messiah." [9]

https://www.conservapedia.com/Prophesies_Fulfilled_by_Christ#Prophesies_of_the_Sacrificial_Death_of_the_Messiah More recently, some Rabbis claim sophisms like (1) the Servant is supposedly Israel, but that is easily refuted by the observation (2) Isaiah says the Servant is without blame, innocent and sinless, whereas right from the first chapter, says Israel, his own people, are sinners, filled with iniquity etc.

Now, here is the passage from Strobel:

Quote"I reflected on how many times I had encountered similar stories, especially among successful and thoughtful Jewish people who had specifically set out to refute Jesus' messianic claims.

I thought about Stan Telchin, the East Coast businessman who had embarked on a quest to expose the "cult" of Christianity after his daughter went away to college and received Y'shua (Jesus) as her Messiah. He was astonished to find that his investigation led him — and his wife and second daughter — to the same Messiah. He later became a Christian minister, and his book that recounts his story, Betrayed!, has been translated into more than twenty languages.

There was Jack Sternberg, a prominent cancer physician in Little Rock, Arkansas, who was so alarmed at what he found in the Old Testament that he challenged three rabbis to disprove that Jesus was the Messiah. They couldn't, and he too has claimed to have found wholeness in Christ.

And there was Peter Greenspan, an obstetrician-gynecologist who practices in the Kansas City area and is a clinical assistant professor at the University of Missouri–Kansas City School of Medicine. Like Lapides, he had been challenged to look for Jesus in Judaism. What he found troubled him, so he went to the Torah and Talmud, seeking to discredit Jesus' messianic credentials. Instead he concluded that Jesus did miraculously fulfill the prophecies. For him, the more he read books by those trying to undermine the evidence for Jesus as the Messiah, the more he saw the flaws in their arguments. Ironically, concluded Greenspan, "I think I actually came to faith in Y'shua by reading what detractors wrote."

From: https://faithgateway.com/blogs/christian-books/fingerprint-evidence-for-our-messiah-jesus-part-2

And here's a youtube video with some 4.5 MN views on Isaiah 53: https://youtu.be/cGz9BVJ_k6s

Thoughts?
God Bless.

Quote from: Hydra009 on July 24, 2024, 02:59:54 PM

Honestly, that is a way creepier design than the naked scaley raptors from the movies.

This strike happened on June 30th, so almost a month ago.

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on July 24, 2024, 10:07:05 AMHEY! Follow the fuckin' script they presume you have, atheists!

It just makes me scratch my head every time Kalam gets posted. Do apologists really think we've never seen it before? You can literally do a google search for debunking Kalam and get thousands of hits. It's such a tired, overused argument that refuting it is practically a rite of passage for any skeptic.