http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33457169
QuoteThe House of Representatives in South Carolina has voted to take down the Confederate flag from capitol grounds after a long and fractious debate.
After a final procedural vote, the bill was then signed by Republican Governor Nikki Haley later on Thursday.
The flag will be removed at 10:00 ET (14:00 GMT) on Friday, according to Ms Haley's office.
Meanwhile, Republican leaders in Congress have called for talks on the flying of the flag across the US.
Republicans in the US House of Representatives cancelled a vote on Thursday on a measure that would have defended the flying of the banner in cemeteries operated by the National Park Service.
The backlash against the emblem grew when a gunman killed nine black people at a Charleston church last month.
Dylann Roof, the 21-year-old charged with the killings, was pictured holding the flag.
The flag - used by the South in the American Civil War (1860-65) - is seen by some as an icon of slavery and racism while others say it symbolises US heritage and history.
'Insult to injury'
The House vote was taken early on Thursday morning after 13 hours of debate and passed 93-27.
During a heated session, dozens of amendments by Republicans aimed at slowing down passage of the bill were rejected.
Some Republicans argued the flag was part of US history that had been "hijacked" by racists.
The dramatic vote came after more than 13 hours of impassioned, angry and sometimes tearful debate. In pleading with her fellow lawmakers to bring down the controversial battle flag, one Republican even reminded colleagues that she was a descendant of the Confederate President Jefferson Davis.
But it is South Carolina's recent history that has transformed this debate and in particular the pictures which emerged after last month's Charleston massacre showing the alleged killer Dylann Roof brandishing a flag long seen as a symbol of slavery, segregation and black subordination.
South Carolina was where the first shots of the Civil War rang out. Given the passions still aroused by that conflict in parts of the American south, it's tempting to see this historic vote almost as a final surrender.
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Representative Mike Pitts said the flag was a reminder of how poor farmers had fought the Union not to support slavery but to protect their land rights.
Chris Corley proposed replacing the emblem with a white flag of surrender, saying: "Maybe that will make everybody happy."
But fellow Republican representative Jenny Horne, a descendant of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, recalled the funeral of state Senator Clementa Pinckney, who was killed in the Charleston attack, and said there should be no stalling on the removal of the flag.
She said: "For the widow of Sen Pinckney and his two young daughters, that would be adding insult to injury and I will not be a part of it!"
Democratic Party Representative Joe Neal said: "South Carolina can remove the stain from our lives. I never thought in my lifetime I would see this."
The Confederate flag was originally the battle emblem of the southern states in the American Civil War which tried to break away.
South Carolina was the first state to leave the union in 1860. It restored the flag in the capitol grounds more than 50 years ago in protest at the civil rights movement.
Good news indeed!
Finally! It should be put in a museum along with the Nazi flag.
Quote from: Solitary on July 10, 2015, 09:17:50 AM
Finally! It should be put in a museum along with the Nazi flag.
Sanity prevails. Which is why I'm surprised--this is South Carolina, after all.
I left class early at USC to see it. So much law enforcement! But a surprising number of families also. It was good to see.
It's used to say, "See? There's no racism anymore and the niggers better shut up about it! "
Living in SC I know that is a huge part of public sentiment. Sadly the shooting in Charleston was the catalyst, but give it a few years and the same clowns will find new excuses to put it back up and tell us that the shooting was a long time ago. Anyone who thinks that institional racism is dead isn't paying attention. This is a side show to divert from the institutional bullshit.
I'm glad it's gone, but the US congress just voted to leave the flag in national parks and the DOD has decided to allow the individual branches of the military to go ahead and keep it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 10, 2015, 10:21:24 AM
Sanity prevails. Which is why I'm surprised--this is South Carolina, after all.
What's on the agenda for next week? Expand Medicaid under the ACA and ban assault riffles?
Honestly I am stunned that they have actually responded to public pressure and DONE something.
Quote from: platatomi on July 10, 2015, 01:33:59 PM
What's on the agenda for next week? Expand Medicaid under the ACA and ban assault riffles?
Honestly I am stunned that they have actually responded to public pressure and DONE something.
Yes, it is a sad day for the KKK.
Quote from: platatomi on July 10, 2015, 01:33:59 PM
What's on the agenda for next week? Expand Medicaid under the ACA and ban assault riffles?
Honestly I am stunned that they have actually responded to public pressure and DONE something.
The Turtle, Mitch McConnel is getting married to Scalia.. All straight married couples will have to divorce and marry not straight partners and the LORD shall begin the hence forth wrath on America! :eek:
:dance:
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 10, 2015, 01:50:38 PM
Yes, it is a sad day for the KKK.
No its not and that's the really sad thing about all this. Its great that they did this, it needed to happen. But that flag was a symbol and nothing more. Taking that symbol away from the capitol building isn't going to do jack shit to change the ideals and beliefs of those within the capitol building. It isn't going to do jack shit for racism either. The bigots in power are still bigots and still in power. If anything, this may serve to strengthen their resolve.
People keep acting like this is such a huge milestone. Like its a solution or at least a huge step in fixing the problem. Its not. Taking the sign off the front off the front of auschwitz is not what stopped the trains from bringing more jews. Taking the sign off the front was an afterthought that was hardly newsworthy at all. The real newsworthy stuff that actually stopped the trains and all the other horrible goings on there overshadowed the removal of the symbol by a wide margin.
So while I'm glad that the flag came down, I'm also saddened that it is such a huge news event. I would much rather have seen the flag coming down be the 5th page news that it really is. I would much rather have seen it be just the afterthought removal of one more remnant of a time that once was but no longer is. I'd rather it had been just another 'you know, none of us really care about this anymore and its kind of offensive so we're just going to take it down because its the right thing to do, no passing of legislation required'. But we're nowhere near that place, and this event doesn't really get us all that much closer.
Quote from: Johan on July 15, 2015, 08:36:47 PM
No its not and that's the really sad thing about all this. Its great that they did this, it needed to happen. But that flag was a symbol and nothing more. Taking that symbol away from the capitol building isn't going to do jack shit to change the ideals and beliefs of those within the capitol building. It isn't going to do jack shit for racism either. The bigots in power are still bigots and still in power. If anything, this may serve to strengthen their resolve.
People keep acting like this is such a huge milestone. Like its a solution or at least a huge step in fixing the problem. Its not. Taking the sign off the front off the front of auschwitz is not what stopped the trains from bringing more jews. Taking the sign off the front was an afterthought that was hardly newsworthy at all. The real newsworthy stuff that actually stopped the trains and all the other horrible goings on there overshadowed the removal of the symbol by a wide margin.
So while I'm glad that the flag came down, I'm also saddened that it is such a huge news event. I would much rather have seen the flag coming down be the 5th page news that it really is. I would much rather have seen it be just the afterthought removal of one more remnant of a time that once was but no longer is. I'd rather it had been just another 'you know, none of us really care about this anymore and its kind of offensive so we're just going to take it down because its the right thing to do, no passing of legislation required'. But we're nowhere near that place, and this event doesn't really get us all that much closer.
My comment was tongue-in-cheek. I know full well that this is really just a rallying cry for the KKK and those who support it. As you suggested, the confederate battle flag should be regarded in the same light as the Nazi flag is now. It is purely a racist symbol. Slavery was just as heinous as the holocaust. And the real irony is that when those who support the battle flag say that it is a symbol of their history and heritage, they are correct. That history and heritage is of racism and slavery. Why should that be honored? Why should the victor in this case not write the history? Why not just outright ban that flag from all govt. buildings and all govt. functions?? Why bow to the southern idiocy of the 'southern heritage' bullshit, when it is the American heritage that is more important? I'm really tired of people saying there are two sides to every story. No, there is not! There is not legit side to slavery! None. Stop playing like there is!
I think one of the things that makes me saddest of all is that its not just the south. One of the guys I manage here in Michigan is all over FB with the 'its a symbol of our heritage' bullshit. He claims to be from Alabama but he's as Northern as you can get. Absolutely no accent, has a genuine appreciation for real Philly cheesesteaks, the whole bit. And I've seen more than one 4x4 pickup driving on the roads here with a large confederate flag flying from a pole stuck in the bed. Just like the south, people are proud of their racism here. Very proud.
when I was a kid in central Michigan they chased them damn "darkies" right out of town…well actually no black person was crazy enough to buy a house in our town, they couldn't buy gas let alone a house. Here in the year 2015 all the folks up there post pictures on FB of their black friends from college….but still no pics of blacks actually IN the home town.
Even here in Flint, Michigan, I've come across at least a dozen people either with the flag on their property or on their car. It's amazing how many of these people are Northern, born and bred, but want to act like they are from the South, peddling that "states' rights" bullshit.
Quote from: Savior2006 on July 16, 2015, 11:02:16 AM
Even here in Flint, Michigan, I've come across at least a dozen people either with the flag on their property or on their car. It's amazing how many of these people are Northern, born and bred, but want to act like they are from the South, peddling that "states' rights" bullshit.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/firefighter-suspended-after-flying-confederate-flag-during-p#.hsO4XQWq4
This story blew my mind. I have a lot of family in Minnesota where this event occurred, and I had no idea Minnesota was some bastion of Southern racial tensions.
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/07/obama-greeted-by-confederate-flags-oklahoma-city
Similarly, the "heritage not hate" concept seemed to get stretched pretty thin when Confederate flags are waving at Obama's appearance in Oklahoma -- which was still known as "Indian Territory" when the terms of surrender were signed at Appomattox, and almost 5 decades away from statehood.
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 16, 2015, 03:04:44 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/firefighter-suspended-after-flying-confederate-flag-during-p#.hsO4XQWq4
This story blew my mind. I have a lot of family in Minnesota where this event occurred, and I had no idea Minnesota was some bastion of Southern racial tensions.
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/07/obama-greeted-by-confederate-flags-oklahoma-city
Similarly, the "heritage not hate" concept seemed to get stretched pretty thin when Confederate flags are waving at Obama's appearance in Oklahoma -- which was still known as "Indian Territory" when the terms of surrender were signed at Appomattox, and almost 5 decades away from statehood.
What I'm really puzzled about is that many of those who want to fly that flag say that it represents history. Then they say they don't want it to represent the rebel part or the slavery part. Isn't that history? How can you ignore part of history (the most important part) and then say it is the history? The Nazi flag has history. I'm sure Pol Pot had a flag and it has history. So what? Just because something has history does not make that history good or something we want to remember with fondness. The battle flag represents rebelling so they can keep a group of people in bondage. What is commendable about that??? Our country is really full of stupid, stupid people.
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 16, 2015, 03:04:44 PM
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/07/obama-greeted-by-confederate-flags-oklahoma-city
Similarly, the "heritage not hate" concept seemed to get stretched pretty thin when Confederate flags are waving at Obama's appearance in Oklahoma -- which was still known as "Indian Territory" when the terms of surrender were signed at Appomattox, and almost 5 decades away from statehood.
When they claim that waving the flag of the Confederacy -- of which they were not a member -- at an African-American president is just a matter of "heritage", two words come to mind, and the first one is "bull".
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 16, 2015, 08:45:42 PM
What I'm really puzzled about is that many of those who want to fly that flag say that it represents history. Then they say they don't want it to represent the rebel part or the slavery part. Isn't that history? How can you ignore part of history (the most important part) and then say it is the history? The Nazi flag has history. I'm sure Pol Pot had a flag and it has history. So what? Just because something has history does not make that history good or something we want to remember with fondness.
It does seem to me that a lot of supporters try defending it in two ways, by trying it one way and then trying it the other way if the first doesn't work.
Usually it starts with "stop trying to deny history." Well, it isn't trying to deny history, it's simply trying to not honor racism and oppression.
Then it goes to "well, it doesn't represent slavery: it represents my heritage!" Let's be honest, heritage is often quite selective. I don't walk around waving Irish and German flags even though if I trace it back far enough that's where my ancestors came from. I actually have a lot of German ancestry, but I don't go around slapping swastikas on everything because of a loose genetic connection to a country and trying to claim swastikas aren't about being a Nazi, since the Nazis stole it from sanskrit. So for someone who was born and raised in Minnesota to say that the Confederate flag is about his own personal heritage, yeah, fuck you. If someone wants a flag that represents "southern values" apart from racism like talking slow and fried chicken and church on Sundays, pick a different goddamn flag.
Quote from: Savior2006 on July 16, 2015, 11:02:16 AM
Even here in Flint, Michigan, I've come across at least a dozen people either with the flag on their property or on their car. It's amazing how many of these people are Northern, born and bred, but want to act like they are from the South, peddling that "states' rights" bullshit.
We're transplants to this state due to work. And initially I fucking loved it here. In the southwestern part of the state where we are, its beautiful in the summer and beautiful in the winter. Yeah the snow can suck and all that, but god damn, its like living in a fucking snow globe most of the time. Just one postcard picture after another after another. The low population density means there's no such thing as traffic anywhere, and there's no such thing as waiting in line. I was once sitting in a Taco Bell that literally had myself and two other customers in it at the time when a woman walked in and was completely serious when she said 'god its fucking packed in here'. And lets not forget the low cost of living. Certain job fields pay about the same anywhere in the country. An individual with one of those jobs can move here from the East or West coast and instantly receive a 30%-40% bump in pay due to the cost of living.
But this racist rebel flag shit? This is making me realize that we don't belong here. Sooner or later I think we're going to have to pack up and move back East so we can live amongst our own kind once again.
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 16, 2015, 09:20:02 PM
It does seem to me that a lot of supporters try defending it in two ways, by trying it one way and then trying it the other way if the first doesn't work.
Usually it starts with "stop trying to deny history." Well, it isn't trying to deny history, it's simply trying to not honor racism and oppression.
Then it goes to "well, it doesn't represent slavery: it represents my heritage!"
And here's my response to those assholes. Google any race related protest or event which took place in the south in the 1960's and will find pictures of said event. And at almost every one of those events, you will see white people who showed up to oppose the blacks who were fighting for equal rights. And those white people? They were displaying the rebel flag in almost every case. Were they flying the American flag? Nope. Were they flying their state flag? Nope. They were showing their opposition to blacks having equal rights and they were flying the rebel flag while doing it.
So you can try to argue that the flag does not represent racism all you like. But a bunch of racist assholes back in the 1960's took steps of their own accord to insure that you will forever lose that argument every single time. It does represent racism. It absolutely represents racism. And if you don't like that, don't get mad at me, get mad at them because they are the ones responsible for it. They could have chosen to fly any flag over their protest and they chose that one. They did. Not me. Them.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 16, 2015, 08:45:42 PM
What I'm really puzzled about is that many of those who want to fly that flag say that it represents history. Then they say they don't want it to represent the rebel part or the slavery part. Isn't that history? How can you ignore part of history (the most important part) and then say it is the history? The Nazi flag has history. I'm sure Pol Pot had a flag and it has history. So what? Just because something has history does not make that history good or something we want to remember with fondness. The battle flag represents rebelling so they can keep a group of people in bondage. What is commendable about that??? Our country is really full of stupid, stupid people.
Doesn't the American flag represent slavery just as much as the battle flag? I don't see people trying to get the American flags taken down. The American flag is more of a favourite for the KKK than the battle flag.
I have no issue with the battle flag. I had a discussion with HBA about this a while back and his point of view made a lot more sense to me than the crap the media pushes on us. It's silly to think that most of the people who choose to display the flag are doing so to show how sad they are that they can't own slaves anymore. HBA said he thinks most of these people just have Southern pride, and that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than thinking all of these people are just butthurt that they aren't allowed to own slaves. Do a lot of racists fly the flag? Yeah, but so what? Plenty of non-racists do as well. Black celebrities wear the battle flag on their clothes for style. It's just a cool looking flag and it could mean anything to anyone. Do we say that the American flag represents only white superiority and white power just because a bunch of KKK members see it that way? No. That would be silly.
They took a flag down.
This is going to change everything.
Quote from: the_antithesis on July 18, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
They took a flag down.
This is going to change everything.
its great though because it opens the doors for the redneck clan to get riled up and come out in public.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 09:46:02 AM
Doesn't the American flag represent slavery just as much as the battle flag? I don't see people trying to get the American flags taken down. The American flag is more of a favourite for the KKK than the battle flag.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/jz8q5k.jpg)
Why is the Ku Klux Klan the litmus test of whether or not a thing is racist?
The American flag is the flag of our nation and has been in this form since 1777 (with the addition of new stars when states were added to the union). It is a symbol of our country. People can use it however they wish. They can burn it, they can waive it at Klan rallies, they can hang giant ones from overpasses, but it won't change history or the symbolism of that flag. Just because the Klan is using an American symbol along with a white power movement doesn't redefine the American flag exclusively as a symbol of white power.
What we know as the Confederate flag was never actually the official flag of the Confederacy, but rather was the flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Yeah, it started out as a poorly recognized war symbol. It became popular in the 1940s when the Dixiecrat party would use it as a symbol resistance to the federal government, which in and of itself isn't bad, except that in following decades it became an important segregationist symbol, featured prominently on the 1956 redesign of Georgia’s state flag, a legislative decision tied directly to the Supreme Court’s decision to desegregate school two years earlier in Brown v. Board of Education. The flag has also been used by the Ku Klux Klan, so if that is your litmus test of racism, well...
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 09:46:02 AMIt's silly to think that most of the people who choose to display the flag are doing so to show how sad they are that they can't own slaves anymore.
You're the one who seems to think that the flag is just about racists being sad that they can't own slaves any more. It's about more than that. It's about racism and oppression in general.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 09:46:02 AMHBA said he thinks most of these people just have Southern pride, and that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than thinking all of these people are just butthurt that they aren't allowed to own slaves. Do a lot of racists fly the flag? Yeah, but so what? Plenty of non-racists do as well.
Southern pride or blind and poorly understood loyalty to a symbol that has been classically used in a negative way? If you're ok with the definition of American "Southern pride" as simply being "racist asshole" then yes, I suppose it's appropriate.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 09:46:02 AMBlack celebrities wear the battle flag on their clothes for style.
The only one I heard about doing it was Kanye West. Yeah, Kanye West.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/34djsky.jpg)
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 09:46:02 AMIt's just a cool looking flag and it could mean anything to anyone.
But to most people, it means racial oppression, rebellion against the union and yes, even slavery. It's like you're suggesting any symbol could have whatever meaning anyone wants, which I suppose is true, but it disregards the fact that many symbols do have widely understood meanings. I can't just slap a bunch of swastikas on a Jewish temple and scream at the top of my lungs that I'm not defacing a building with an obvious symbol of Nazism, but rather a symbol of a"lucky or auspicious object" as it was originally defined in sanskrit writings. Your argument is a tool used by racists to defend racism. It's like someone saying the word "nigger" isn't a pejorative term, since it wasn't originally derogatory and because they personally don't find it offensive.
Quote from: the_antithesis on July 18, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
They took a flag down.
This is going to change everything.
Eh, it's a start. Every little bit helps.
I have no problem with the word nigger. I use it myself from time to time with friends. Nigger can mean white guy, black guy, someone you're cool with, someone you're insulting, etc. Nigger is kind of like the word fuck. The word has evolved and to me it really just means "person". Nigger is not some evil word, unless that's what you want it to be. I grew up with 2Pac and other rap music, so I see the word how I grew up with it. Words evolve. Look at the word bitch. An insult that has become a term of endearment for many women who call their friends bitch.
I see the battle flag the same way. It has many different meanings, just like bitch and nigger do.
Kanye isn't the only black guy to display the flag.
(https://cavnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/confederatewire2n-1-web.jpg?w=584&h=444)
(http://www.civilwarnews.com/galleries/2009/confedmus09/images/CONFEDMEM014.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0T16vqDEYRc/Tq_wFOaGGdI/AAAAAAAAAsI/hfpdoWXvSUU/s1600/Sons%2Bof%2BConfederate%2BVeterans%2Bmember%2BNelson%2BWinbush%2B79.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4e/5d/61/4e5d61af9097ab15f7563fb4b6fdbeb7.jpg)
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af306/BIGgoon187/shid.jpg)
(http://www.shortnorth.com/DooDah07Images/DooDah07Images-Images/25.jpg)
(http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2014/08/28/we-ve-got-bigger-problems-than-a-confederate-flag/jcr:content/image.crop.800.500.jpg/1409228448656.cached.jpg)
(http://www.youngcons.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/cooper2-1024x574.jpg)
Look at all the Uncle Tom's who've never read a book in their life!
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 09:46:02 AM
Doesn't the American flag represent slavery just as much as the battle flag? I don't see people trying to get the American flags taken down. The American flag is more of a favourite for the KKK than the battle flag.
I have no issue with the battle flag. I had a discussion with HBA about this a while back and his point of view made a lot more sense to me than the crap the media pushes on us. It's silly to think that most of the people who choose to display the flag are doing so to show how sad they are that they can't own slaves anymore. HBA said he thinks most of these people just have Southern pride, and that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than thinking all of these people are just butthurt that they aren't allowed to own slaves. Do a lot of racists fly the flag? Yeah, but so what? Plenty of non-racists do as well. Black celebrities wear the battle flag on their clothes for style. It's just a cool looking flag and it could mean anything to anyone. Do we say that the American flag represents only white superiority and white power just because a bunch of KKK members see it that way? No. That would be silly.
I have no idea who/what HBA is, but I could care less. Why don't you work on getting your own opinion? It is 'silly' to think that most who choose to display the flag do so to show that they can't own slaves? I am always a little flabbergasted when I hear stupid shit like that!! The average southern soldier did not go to war to protect his own slave holdings. That would be too expensive for him. He went to war to protect a way of life, a zeitgeist, if you will; a feeling that they could own slaves if they became rich enough and that owning slaves was a good and moral thing. It was allowed and encouraged by the morals of their society and of christian morality, as well. Why do you think the Jim Crow laws came to be? To keep the darky in his place, to ensure that white was always better. That was why the South fought the war. That is the history of it--that is the heritage of it. Why is that something to be prideful of? Why is that a good thing? That feeling produced the KKK as simply the manifestation of the southern zeitgeist. The confederate battle flag has also taken on the mantle of all that. Why is that a good symbol? Prideful--only for the skin heads, racists and those who believe in one group owning another group.
All of the 'arguments' you put forth about the confederate battle flag could be applied to the Nazi flag as well. It represents just a period in history. The average German soldier did not kill Jews, just as the average rebel did now own slaves. So what? They fought for a cause--and that cause was evil. Why should that history, that heritage be honored in any way? Remembered, yes, but honored??? NO!!! Just because a flag is 'cool looking' does not make it right. Are you really that shallow???? Can you read? Have you ever been to the south? Do you know any southerners?
Something else to think about--that is the confederate 'battle' flag. Why call it that? Because it was developed to keep friendly fire down. At the start of the Civil War, the US and Confederate flags looked too much alike. So the battle flag was developed and used to make sure the soldiers were firing on the correct group. Why not display the Confederate States flag and not the battle flag? Not that I like either one much, for they honor the same rotten, evil system.
As for the US flag being equated to the confederate battle flag--are you really that fucking stupid??? The United States Flag represents the United States--all of it--all of it's history, all of it's heritage. Yes, the Civil War is part of that. But you see, the United States officially and with military might, officially opposed the Southern Way of Life. The South lost. And the way of live was repudiated. The Confederate States is NOT part of the heritage of the US flag. The Southern Heritage was rejected. Officially. The two flags do not equate. It would be like thinking that the modern German flag also would include the Nazi flag as part of it's heritage. The US flag represents to each person whatever that person wants it to. But officially, it represents all 50 states and our collective history.
You want me to believe that main stream black entertainers were the battle flag? Really. And the US flag is more a favorite of the KKK than the battle flag? Really!
Quote from: the_antithesis on July 18, 2015, 12:17:12 PM
It is?
I think so. Whats happened in the past can't be undone, but what happens now and moving on from it, every step away from giving those shitty times in the past credit, is a step in the right direction. Every step gay rights took over the last century has lead to gay people being able to marry now and adopt.
Steps to back a difference.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 12:22:38 PMNigger can mean white guy, black guy, someone you're cool with, someone you're insulting, etc. Nigger is kind of like the word fuck.
I'm sorry, but you're fucking stupid. I dare you to walk through South Central LA and tell people that. See what happens to you.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 12:22:38 PM
Kanye isn't the only black guy to display the flag.
Look at all the Uncle Tom's who've never read a book in their life!
So these black people represent all black people? The plural of anecdote isn't data.
Quotehttp://www.people-press.org/2011/04/08/civil-war-at-150-still-relevant-still-divisive/
Only a small number of Americans say they display the Confederate flag, but that symbol of the Southern cause elicits more negative reactions from some groups â€" especially African Americans, Democrats and the highly educated. Nevertheless, most Americans say they do not react positively or negatively when they see the Confederate flag.
Fewer than one-in-ten (8%) say they display the Confederate flag in places such as their home or office, on their car or on their clothing; 91% say they do not. The number that displays the Confederate flag is just a small fraction of the 75% who say they display the American flag in their homes or offices, on their cars or their clothing.
Far more African Americans than whites have a negative reaction to the Confederate flag (41% to 29%). Still, about as many blacks have no reaction (45%) as a negative reaction to the Confederate flag. Among whites, 61% have no reaction.
Whites who consider themselves Southerners have a more positive reaction to the Confederate flag than do other whites: 22% say they react positively when they see the Confederate flag displayed, compared with 8% of all whites and just 4% of whites who do not consider themselves Southerners.
Nearly half of those with at least a college degree (46%) say they have a negative reaction to the display of the Confederate flag, compared with a third (33%) of those with some college experience and just 18% of those with a high school diploma or less.
There also are partisan differences in reactions to the flag: about twice as many Democrats (44%) as Republicans (21%) react negatively to displays of the Confederate flag. And Republicans are more likely than Democrats to have a positive reaction to the flag (15% vs. 7%).
Quote from: Munch on July 18, 2015, 12:38:40 PM
I think so. Whats happened in the past can't be undone, but what happens now and moving on from it, every step away from giving those shitty times in the past credit, is a step in the right direction. Every step gay rights took over the last century has lead to gay people being able to marry now and adopt.
Steps to back a difference.
Yeah, Munch, I agree.
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 18, 2015, 12:40:49 PM
I'm sorry, but you're fucking stupid. I dare you to walk through South Central LA and tell people that. See what happens to you.
So these black people represent all black people? The plural of anecdote isn't data.
I'm stupid because I don't find a word offensive that you find offensive? Ok...
Where the heck did you get the idea that I was trying to say these blacks represent all blacks? The point of posting those pictures was to show that the flag means different things to different people. Some blacks like it. Some don't. Some whites like it. Other whites don't.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 18, 2015, 12:23:58 PM
Why is that a good symbol? Prideful--only for the skin heads, racists and those who believe in one group owning another group.
There you go acting like all blacks have the exact same opinion. Blacks have differing opinions just like anyone else does. My pictures prove your statement wrong. "The symbol is only prideful for racists and those who believe in owning slaves." What are you saying here? Is that what these black folks are? These people hate their own race and think that slavery was ok? Want to take back your silly
statement now?
And I never said it's a good symbol. I said I am not bothered by it.
QuoteI'm sorry, but you're fucking stupid. I dare you to walk through South Central LA and tell people that. See what happens to you.
Edit: I just realized he said nigger rather nigga. Never mind...
Nigger is definitely an insult, you are infact an idiot if you don't think so.
Nigga...it all depends on context.
When a black person is telling his friend in the middle of campus (and this is almost directly quoted)...
"My nigga and I went to this niggas place and we saw so-and-so and his nigga there, and oh my god this nigga was like..."
... he is not saying, "My *racial insult* and I went to this *racial insult* place and we saw so-and-so and his *racial insult* there, and oh my god this *racial insult* was like....". Nor when a black friend of mine is like, "What's up my nigga?" is he calling me all the negative traits that go with it.
That said, if you have white skin... you really just shouldn't be using the word. I realize that makes me a hypocrite, but it's not a word "our people" should be using because we lost the right to do so and there are too many white people who still use it as an insult (and will say, "But white guy 1 is allowed to say it, so I should too!).
Not sure I dropped enough n-bombs there...
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 12:22:38 PM
I have no problem with the word nigger. I use it myself from time to time with friends. Nigger can mean white guy, black guy, someone you're cool with, someone you're insulting, etc. Nigger is kind of like the word fuck. The word has evolved and to me it really just means "person". Nigger is not some evil word, unless that's what you want it to be. I grew up with 2Pac and other rap music, so I see the word how I grew up with it. Words evolve. Look at the word bitch. An insult that has become a term of endearment for many women who call their friends bitch.
I see the battle flag the same way. It has many different meanings, just like bitch and nigger do.
Kanye isn't the only black guy to display the flag.
(https://cavnews.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/confederatewire2n-1-web.jpg?w=584&h=444)
(http://www.civilwarnews.com/galleries/2009/confedmus09/images/CONFEDMEM014.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0T16vqDEYRc/Tq_wFOaGGdI/AAAAAAAAAsI/hfpdoWXvSUU/s1600/Sons%2Bof%2BConfederate%2BVeterans%2Bmember%2BNelson%2BWinbush%2B79.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4e/5d/61/4e5d61af9097ab15f7563fb4b6fdbeb7.jpg)
(http://i1018.photobucket.com/albums/af306/BIGgoon187/shid.jpg)
(http://www.shortnorth.com/DooDah07Images/DooDah07Images-Images/25.jpg)
(http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2014/08/28/we-ve-got-bigger-problems-than-a-confederate-flag/jcr:content/image.crop.800.500.jpg/1409228448656.cached.jpg)
(http://www.youngcons.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/cooper2-1024x574.jpg)
Look at all the Uncle Tom's who've never read a book in their life!
Really?
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 01:15:46 PM
And I never said it's a good symbol. I said I am not bothered by it.
A lot of people ARE bothered by it though.
Quote from: the_antithesis on July 18, 2015, 12:17:12 PM
It is?
Yes, it is. Human history is based on symbols. It was probably one of the first thing we did. It's carved into our collective memory along with what they stand for.
Did you know one of the major differences between the neanderthal and the sapiens is that the latter adorned themselves and their things, highly likely produced and used first symbols to do it, while the former didn't do such a thing? We also made better weapons and we survived. They didn't. These are closely connected.
We also loaded meanings on those symbols, passed them to generations to generations to keep an idea, a memory or an event alive through time. And we succeeded. There are simple symbols on the objects we use every day older than the human civilisation we can estimate.
Symbols are very powerful. So much powerful than the hypermodern man sitting in front of the computer thinking he is 'out' and untouched by that shit. He isn't. None of us are.
Quote from: the_antithesis on July 18, 2015, 12:17:12 PM
It is?
Yes. Taking down the pro-slavery Confederacy flag from government property is actually sort of a good idea for obvious reasons. Granted, it does little to redress current racism and discrimination, but it sends an important symbolic message. Besides, only a complete idiot or someone trying to launch a strawman argument (http://imgur.com/gallery/3jqlokT) would claim that this move is end of racism.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 12:54:45 PM
I'm stupid because I don't find a word offensive that you find offensive? Ok...
No, you're stupid because you think the word nigger isn't a pejorative and that it can mean "white guy, black guy, someone you're cool with, someone you're insulting, etc." It
is a pejorative and its meaning isn't casual. The fact that members of the black community use it within certain contexts doesn't mean you personally get to redefine what the word means. I don't think you're stupid because you're not offended by it, I simply think you're stupid because you're suggesting that it isn't widely deemed offensive.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 18, 2015, 01:40:49 PM
Edit: I just realized he said nigger rather nigga. Never mind...
Nigger is definitely an insult, you are infact an idiot if you don't think so.
Nigga...it all depends on context.
When a black person is telling his friend in the middle of campus (and this is almost directly quoted)...
"My nigga and I went to this niggas place and we saw so-and-so and his nigga there, and oh my god this nigga was like..."
... he is not saying, "My *racial insult* and I went to this *racial insult* place and we saw so-and-so and his *racial insult* there, and oh my god this *racial insult* was like....". Nor when a black friend of mine is like, "What's up my nigga?" is he calling me all the negative traits that go with it.
That said, if you have white skin... you really just shouldn't be using the word. I realize that makes me a hypocrite, but it's not a word "our people" should be using because we lost the right to do so and there are too many white people who still use it as an insult (and will say, "But white guy 1 is allowed to say it, so I should too!).
Not sure I dropped enough n-bombs there...
Nigger and nigga are the exact same thing to me. I use both. I'll use nigga if I'm in the mood to use a little slang, and I'll use the other pronunciation if I don't feel like slanging my speech up at the moment. It's not a nice thing to say if you're meaning it in a racist way, but I never use it with racist intent. Why do I think nigger is not really any different from nigga? Black people add an "a" in place of "er" in dozens of words. Nigger changing to nigga is not what made it ok. A lack of intent to be racist is what makes it ok.
Instead of figure, you will often hear black people pronounce it "figga". You get "playa" instead of "player". Does that mean figga means something different than figure? No. The "a" is just slang. Do player and playa have different definitions? No, they mean the same thing. The word is just pronounced a bit differently, but spelling it a little different does not change the definition of the word. What about "holla" rather than "holler"? Same word essentially, no? You see what I'm getting at? I know that a lot of blacks are not ok with the "er" version, but that's because when they took the word and made it theirs, they used the slang version of the word, because they use slang for most of the words that come out of their mouths. The unofficial rule that black folks wanted was that whites couldn't use the word, period, er or a, and since blacks were the only one's unofficially allowed to use it, the slang version became really popular and people started seeing the er and a versions as different words, even though in actuality, it's just the same word pronounced differently, although the word has evolved and taken on new meaning. Nigger can mean brother. It can mean person. Or, it can mean what it has classically meant.
So unless you're going to tell me killa, hata, playa, dolla, holla, balla, etc are different words from the "white" pronunciations with different meanings, why is nigga and nigger a special case? It's the same thing. The reason a lot of black folks don't like the er version is because they don't like the "white" way of speaking in general, so it's supposedly only acceptable now for whites to use slang when saying the word, because that's how blacks said the word when they took it for themselves. You can call someone a nigga and have racist intent behind it, and you can say nigger and have no racist intent behind it. The intent is what matters, not whether I happen to be slanging up my speech. I understand that many blacks see the er version as racist though, and I wouldn't use the word in front of anyone I didn't know was ok with it.
Quote from: Mermaid on July 18, 2015, 01:44:23 PM
A lot of people ARE bothered by it though.
There's not a thing in this world that a whole lot of people aren't bothered by.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 03:14:13 PM
There's not a thing in this world that a whole lot of people aren't bothered by.
Would you like some perspective with that, sir?
(http://cdn2-www.afterellen.com/assets/uploads/2013/04/Waitress1.jpg)
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 01:15:46 PM
There you go acting like all blacks have the exact same opinion. Blacks have differing opinions just like anyone else does. My pictures prove your statement wrong. "The symbol is only prideful for racists and those who believe in owning slaves." What are you saying here? Is that what these black folks are? These people hate their own race and think that slavery was ok? Want to take back your silly
statement now?
And I never said it's a good symbol. I said I am not bothered by it.
It is kind of obvious that not all of any group is going to believe the same thing. Basically, what I think you are saying is that there should be no censorship for anything. That nothing is really out of bounds. That anybody can say anything to anybody. Is that what you think? (And yes, this is an honest question--please correct me if I am wrong.)
Quote from: TomFoolery on July 18, 2015, 02:46:06 PM
No, you're stupid because you think the word nigger isn't a pejorative and that it can mean "white guy, black guy, someone you're cool with, someone you're insulting, etc." It is a pejorative and its meaning isn't casual. The fact that members of the black community use it within certain contexts doesn't mean you personally get to redefine what the word means. I don't think you're stupid because you're not offended by it, I simply think you're stupid because you're suggesting that it isn't widely deemed offensive.
Where did I say it's not widely deemed offensive? Who the heck would question something like that? Where do you get this stuff from? Of course the word "nigger" is extremely offensive to a whole lot of folks.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 03:14:13 PM
There's not a thing in this world that a whole lot of people aren't bothered by.
Perhaps it would serve you to think about people other than yourself.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 03:38:12 PM
Where did I say it's not widely deemed offensive? Who the heck would question something like that? Where do you get this stuff from? Of course the word "nigger" is extremely offensive to a whole lot of folks.
Including myself. It's not OK to use it.
Quote from: Mike Cl on July 18, 2015, 03:32:46 PM
It is kind of obvious that not all of any group is going to believe the same thing. Basically, what I think you are saying is that there should be no censorship for anything. That nothing is really out of bounds. That anybody can say anything to anybody. Is that what you think? (And yes, this is an honest question--please correct me if I am wrong.)
Sure, anybody can say pretty much anything to anybody, outside of threatening someone's life which is against the law. Isn't that how things are now? Of course I am in favour of free speech. That doesn't mean I'm not extremely respectful to the people I come into contact with in my daily life. Obviously I'm not going to go into the ghetto calling every black guy I see nigga, nigger, bitch, asshole, soft, dummy, etc, because I don't have a death wish, but I will use all of those words if it's a close friend of mine in a playful manner because I know they are ok with it, and they dish it back out, with no offence meant and no offence taken by either of us.
Quote from: Mermaid on July 18, 2015, 03:52:44 PM
Perhaps it would serve you to think about people other than yourself.
That's actually exactly what I was doing. I don't give a shit about the battle flag. Never have and never will. I'm not even American.
I'm not American either. I'm also not black. It's offensive to me.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 04:13:53 PM
That's actually exactly what I was doing. I don't give a shit about the battle flag. Never have and never will. I'm not even American.
Really? It seems to me that you were casting aspersions and anyone who is offended by words and the Confederate flag, and insinuating that they are wrong for feeling this way, or are too sensitive. What YOU think seems to be at the center of this.
I didn't claim anyone was wrong for being offended by the flag or disliking the flag. We're allowed to be offended by anything we want to be offended by.
I don't even care that the flag was taken down. My main problem in this thread was reading claims like "only skinheads and those who wish to own another person would be proud of the battle flag". Tell that to the blacks, liberals, atheists, gays, etc. that also choose to fly the flag.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 05:46:23 PM
I didn't claim anyone was wrong for being offended by the flag or disliking the flag. We're allowed to be offended by anything we want to be offended by.
I don't even care that the flag was taken down. My main problem in this thread was reading claims like "only skinheads and those who wish to own another person would be proud of the battle flag". Tell that to the blacks, liberals, atheists, gays, etc. that also choose to fly the flag.
There are gays that are proud of the Vatican, even at the height of its homophobia. There were Jews that were proud Nazis. What does that prove, other than that people can be turnt to like things even against their own self interest? The only people who have legitimate reason to be proud of the Stars and Bars are those who it represents; rich, white slaveowning males.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 03:38:12 PM
Where did I say it's not widely deemed offensive? Who the heck would question something like that? Where do you get this stuff from?
I get this stuff from you, when you say things like:
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 12:22:38 PM
I have no problem with the word nigger. I use it myself from time to time with friends. Nigger can mean white guy, black guy, someone you're cool with, someone you're insulting, etc. Nigger is kind of like the word fuck. The word has evolved and to me it really just means "person". Nigger is not some evil word, unless that's what you want it to be.
Like seriously, if you have such a flippant attitude about using it and you use it with your friends, why not go to a predominantly black community and take the Die Hard with a Vengeance challenge?
(http://i62.tinypic.com/9rm1vr.jpg)
You say yourself that you're not even American. I am. I grew up in Texas and I'm currently living in South Carolina (Columbia as a matter of fact) where this whole thing started (the Civil War, the Confederate flag in front of a government building, etc.) I can tell you from firsthand experience your ideas about racism in the American South aren't exactly accurate. You aren't the standard by which offense is measured. Just because you don't care about a segregationist symbol or derogatory term doesn't mean that other people don't, which I suppose you've admitted. But it reeks of a air of hipster cynicism, wherein you try to justify your own lack of offense by pretending to be weary and irreverent about the things that don't offend you, which allows you instead to gripe about the supposed "PC culture" or "offended generation." I don't understand how having strong feelings about things has somehow achieved an air of "uncoolness," which is a great way to discourage activism and perpetuate things like racism.
Quote from: FaithIsFilth on July 18, 2015, 04:08:07 PM
Sure, anybody can say pretty much anything to anybody, outside of threatening someone's life which is against the law. Isn't that how things are now? Of course I am in favour of free speech. That doesn't mean I'm not extremely respectful to the people I come into contact with in my daily life. Obviously I'm not going to go into the ghetto calling every black guy I see nigga, nigger, bitch, asshole, soft, dummy, etc, because I don't have a death wish, but I will use all of those words if it's a close friend of mine in a playful manner because I know they are ok with it, and they dish it back out, with no offence meant and no offence taken by either of us.
Yeah, I hear ya about that. I say things to good friends--back in the day, we used to call it fat-fucking with somebody. But even on those terms, I was careful that what I said was politically incorrect in a way that the other was okay with. It is easy to go too far, even in that type of friendly exchange. But that is not what I was talking about--and I'm not sure you were either. The battle flag is a symbol that is displayed on govt. buildings, which is supposed to reflect all of us. Clearly it does not. For the same reason it should not be displayed in any govt. capacity. If individuals want to display it, so be it. People can be as ignorant as they wish.
Quote from: drunkenshoe on July 18, 2015, 02:24:17 PM
Symbols are very powerful. So much powerful than the hypermodern man sitting in front of the computer thinking he is 'out' and untouched by that shit. He isn't. None of us are.
I disagree.
The problem isn't that flag. The problem was a young man who went to a bible study in a church and even though he was reconsidering his plan because the people there were so nice to him, he still pulled out a gun and opened fire.
It is a symbol and only a symbol. Take it down. Outlaw it if you want. But all that will happen is the bigots will need to adopt a new symbol.
I'm reminded of this:
(http://assets.amuniversal.com/0f913a10acbb012d63f600163e41dd5b)
source (http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1989/08/06)
There's a real problem here and taking down a flag is the last thing that needed to be done. But it's easier to accomplish and then everyone can pat themselves on the back and feel real good about accomplishing something.
Quote from: the_antithesis on July 18, 2015, 11:49:14 PM
I disagree.
The problem isn't that flag. The problem was a young man who went to a bible study in a church and even though he was reconsidering his plan because the people there were so nice to him, he still pulled out a gun and opened fire.
It is a symbol and only a symbol. Take it down. Outlaw it if you want. But all that will happen is the bigots will need to adopt a new symbol.
There's a real problem here and taking down a flag is the last thing that needed to be done. But it's easier to accomplish and then everyone can pat themselves on the back and feel real good about accomplishing something.
You seem to look at this as something people see as a conclusive action. No, it is not. It's as symbolic as the flag itself. It's happening now, because it has become beneficial to the society now. Like legalising marriage in the US. The state in your country was powerful enough to 'force' legalise marriage, pick a fight about it and speed the process some time ago. However, it wouldn't work, it would fail, because it wasn't beneficial then.
The action of taking down the flag by official means, first of all just as 'taking down a flag' has been done for a very long time in history, it is very effective and it is also the same thing with a clan chief taking the symbolic staff of the once praised warrior to declare him stripped off his powers. He was once legitimate, now he isn't. He is officially declared to be removed from collective memory and history of that culture. At least stripped from any positive connotations for the thick to get what it means.
It's the fucking Confederate flag, anti. The Civil War. It's the fucking national flag of the Confederate States of America. If United States of America of today was one person and if we could dig in her mind, cut out all the memories; issues, conflicts, hatred, love, good/bad, belligerent characteristics, the whole culture that got shaped and made her, we would find the Civil War under every stone, a war as the way I see never really ended, but just got transformed and transformed, changed into this and that, got carried away, turned around and upside down, pulled from sides...whatever, it is still alive.
How is that it is wrong or an easy thing to get it down, so means nothing?
The guy who opened fire, the bigots who will get a new symbol are all included in the picture I tried to draw in my first post, so the picture we live in now. None of these things are in dispute of how powerful the symbols, their acceptence by a society or refusal in time is. It's a part of the same pattern. Same principles, same influence, same bullshit. And do you think there wouldn't be people opening fire around with this or that reason without outlawing a flag? Setting up KKK kind of organisations?
Of course they will find a new symbol, may be years later design a new flag. May be there will even be violence about this somewhere soon or in near future. That's not bad news. You don't get anything real without conflict. Are they going to get radicalised openly in political basis? That would even be better. Let the colours go out.
Do you have any idea how important a gesture this is to tell the people of a subculture who have lived the identity of being the foundation of the United States for hundreds of years, that they are NOT even legitimate what so ever anymore in any sense? Is it just the flag going down? Are you aware what has been going on in your country for the last few years? They keep getting cornered and cornered. It's one thing to these fuckers to feel that they are not the soveriegn class, another thing to declare it offically that they are not a legitimate part of the culture, making it an example. I am sure you can see it even if you don't believe it is real, because I can from at the other side of the world.
Nobody thinks this is some victory and end of things. It's a start. It is going to take time. Nobody who is conscious enough to get the importance of the gesture of taking that flag down is foolish enough to think it is a fucking revolution.
Outlawing a symbol of an ideology of a large group is only dangerous in long term IF you are unsuccessful in transforming the generations. The worst thing that could happen that they get organised and go underground. Is that what you mean? That kind of an 'organised movement' would not be like a few right wing nutters or christian extremists opening fire around to shoot a dozen. Not by the historical background, nor the nature of the ideology they have, thinking they have nothing to lose when they get this cornered. It would be a real size domestic terrorism no media can cover up or sweep under the carpet with some 'psyhcopath' getting his hands on some weapon closet. It would upset everything. And I'd like to see them trying something like that in the United States. That's not the Middle East. Americans do not know about that kind and scale of domestic terrorism. When it comes to people dropping dead every day, lack of public safety, social life going down and most importantly, eventually effecting domestic economy, that Uncle Sam once they defined it with themselves would shove those weapons of freedom up their religious ass so fast, they can't even find time to learn to spell the word 'confederate' correctly.
The current domestic terrorism you have is the neccessary evil, any political side can make something out of it for themselves, media runs on it with countless benefits -domestic or international- and it is not following a constant pattern with an organisation behind it. When that kind of shit happens, that huge country of 50 states and 310 mils. that see themselves so apart would get shrunk so little, so fast there is no benefit in to for any group, there would be nothing left but to take it out brutally.
[Actually, thinking about this scenario now, that would also give a good reason for starting to beat down some pro-gun policies too. The thing you guys believe never likely to change. There is nothing more convincing than people dropping dead around in a good rate.]
Yeah well, these are all made up scenarios, but if you mean southern racism growing as a specific culture and spread deeply within because of these kinds of actions, you need constant bad economy, weak state to have that as a real threat. US doesn't have a weak state. You guys don't know what is to live under a weak state. If you had a weak state, things would get messed up years ago. If democrats continue to stay in power and do something real to support correcting the wages, poverty, unemployement, education, equality in the coming decade that outlawing would be very rewarding to American society.
You'd be amazed to see how societies get transformed after a tipping point is achieved. Masses do not have a good memory in this sense and it is a natural development to make something good out of it with a tipping point.
Well yes, I wish there was a real left in your country, hell a European style socialist state to occur some day soon for ALL OUR sake, but unfortunately that's just a wet fantasy. So you have to go with this and it is a start.
You guys also miss a lot about why some things have to happen in the USA in an open, blatant manner. This is an important development even it is successful or not in the short term. They should have made a far big international deal out of it.
We tend to see this battle flag fight as an ending of something or the start of something. I see it as an event in the middle of something. And that something is an acceptance of people of color as being inherently equal. This has been going on for a very long time. And the progress (which for me is coming to a full acceptance of the premise that color is only a very minor aspect of a person) has been agonizingly slow--still is. But the flag coming down is a tiny, tiny tipping point. We may be entering a time when that full acceptance side will gain ground fairly quickly, for awhile. I do not see this fight ending any time soon. It will rage on for way, way too long into the future. But the battle flag as a symbol being pulled down and being tarnished as any kind of positive thing, is an important symbolic victory. Not a huge victory. But a tiny, but still important little watershed event. I'd like to think this battle will be won in my lifetime--it won't be. Nor in my children's time or my grandchildren's time, either. I think more victories for my side will pile up, but this sort of thing takes ages to fully change.
"The Confederate flag does not represent hate..."
"I'LL HANG YOUR BLACK ASS!!!" "IT'S A WHITE REVOLUTION!"
Righty-o, then.
Quote from: Shiranu on July 19, 2015, 08:26:12 PM
"The Confederate flag does not represent hate..."
To 67 percent of Americans it doesn't. The whole offence thing to me is just a little funny, because when I look at the American flag, I see a whole lot of ugly history, and I also see a whole lot of ugliness that is going on today under that flag. I don't, like the guy who said the battle flag is only for skinheads, in turn say that the only people who would fly the American flag are those that support the death of over a million brown people for a small geopolitical gain, with millions more to die and have their lives ruined over the coming decades. What do you think all those black people protesting in the streets think of your American flag? Do they think it's a good symbol to be respected? You know what else that flag represents to me? All those people in jail because of the war on drugs. That's slavery right there, still going on today under the American flag. Slavery is going on today under the stars and stripes, not the battle flag. I don't display the Canadian flag, and if I was an American, I definitely would not be flying the American flag. I have zero problem with anyone flying the American flag though. I have zero problem with them flying it in my neighbourhood. I'm not going to tell these people what the flag should represent for them.
I know the American flag is the flag of a country so that's different and the flag will obviously be flown on government buildings, but it being the flag of a country is not relevant when talking about people who display the flag in their homes or outside of their homes. The Nazi flag comparison is not a good one. It's much more obvious what that flag means. People who fly that flag have no problem telling you how they feel, so let's not act like these are the same things. Only 33 percent of Americans find the battle flag racist. Would we get those same numbers if the question was about the Nazi flag? Not anywhere close, so that's why it's a bad comparison.
Of course there are a huge amount of racists in the south. I never meant to dispute that. Being racist doesn't mean you care about slavery. These are two separate things. You guys can not read the minds of all of these people, and neither can I. Slavery was the reality of the times back then (just like in our time we have slaves in jail, and most of us own things that were made by people overseas working for slave wages). That doesn't mean most of these people still care about slavery, or are flying the flag because they mean to honour slavery. There are many different levels of racism. One can be racist and think whites are superior, while having no problem interacting with blacks and being respectful towards them, and that racist person may very well see mostly just Southern pride when they look at their battle flag. There are also those who still wish black people could be bought and owned, or who wish that blacks were shipped back to Africa or whatever. I'm very aware that these people exist.
There was a brief period of time for a few years just recently where it was quite fashionable for people to authoritatively point out to the less well informed, "The Civil War was not about slavery! It was an economic war!" As startling as this was to those of us who thought the war was about slavery, it started to gain traction, probably based on its paradoxical nature. Maybe someone on FOX News said it, and it took on a life of it's own. The other diversion was to claim that it was about state's rights, which was also true. But the fact remains that the civil war was about slavery, both the economics of free slave labor, and southern states deciding that one race had the right to enslave another.
It doesn't make any difference what percentage of the US supports the Confederate flag, or whether the Nazi flag is more offensive. The Confederate flag represents a would be country that was founded on the right to enslave black people. The South didn't send blacks to gas chambers, but lah dee dah. It wanted to institutionalize human slavery, and that's offensive enough to warrant outright scorn, as well as scorn for those who still celebrate the symbol that stood for it.
Even South Carolina is beginning to recognize that. Imagine a separate western country today that happily imported slaves from Africa to increase it's economic output. The idea is so repugnant to most people today it's no longer seen as a glorious attempt at creating a slave owning society between Mexico and the United States. Not only should its symbol be removed from government buildings; It should also be publically burned, and trampled, and the remnants put on display in a holocaust museum.