Confederate flag to be removed from South Carolina capitol

[TomFoolery]

Even here in Flint, Michigan, I've come across at least a dozen people either with the flag on their property or on their car. It's amazing how many of these people are Northern, born and bred, but want to act like they are from the South, peddling that "states' rights" bullshit.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/firefighter-suspended-after-flying-confederate-flag-during-p#.hsO4XQWq4
This story blew my mind. I have a lot of family in Minnesota where this event occurred, and I had no idea Minnesota was some bastion of Southern racial tensions.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/07/obama-greeted-by-confederate-flags-oklahoma-city
Similarly, the "heritage not hate" concept seemed to get stretched pretty thin when Confederate flags are waving at Obama's appearance in Oklahoma -- which was still known as "Indian Territory" when the terms of surrender were signed at Appomattox, and almost 5 decades away from statehood.

[Mike Cl]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/firefighter-suspended-after-flying-confederate-flag-during-p#.hsO4XQWq4
This story blew my mind. I have a lot of family in Minnesota where this event occurred, and I had no idea Minnesota was some bastion of Southern racial tensions.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/07/obama-greeted-by-confederate-flags-oklahoma-city
Similarly, the "heritage not hate" concept seemed to get stretched pretty thin when Confederate flags are waving at Obama's appearance in Oklahoma -- which was still known as "Indian Territory" when the terms of surrender were signed at Appomattox, and almost 5 decades away from statehood.

What I'm really puzzled about is that many of those who want to fly that flag say that it represents history.  Then they say they don't want it to represent the rebel part or the slavery part.  Isn't that history?  How can you ignore part of history (the most important part) and then say it is the history?  The Nazi flag has history.  I'm sure Pol Pot had a flag and it has history.  So what?  Just because something has history does not make that history good or something we want to remember with fondness.  The battle flag represents rebelling so they can keep a group of people in bondage.  What is commendable about that???  Our country is really full of stupid, stupid people.

[trdsf]

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/07/obama-greeted-by-confederate-flags-oklahoma-city
Similarly, the "heritage not hate" concept seemed to get stretched pretty thin when Confederate flags are waving at Obama's appearance in Oklahoma -- which was still known as "Indian Territory" when the terms of surrender were signed at Appomattox, and almost 5 decades away from statehood.

When they claim that waving the flag of the Confederacy -- of which they were not a member -- at an African-American president is just a matter of "heritage", two words come to mind, and the first one is "bull".

[TomFoolery]

What I'm really puzzled about is that many of those who want to fly that flag say that it represents history.  Then they say they don't want it to represent the rebel part or the slavery part.  Isn't that history?  How can you ignore part of history (the most important part) and then say it is the history?  The Nazi flag has history.  I'm sure Pol Pot had a flag and it has history.  So what?  Just because something has history does not make that history good or something we want to remember with fondness.

It does seem to me that a lot of supporters try defending it in two ways, by trying it one way and then trying it the other way if the first doesn't work.

Usually it starts with "stop trying to deny history." Well, it isn't trying to deny history, it's simply trying to not honor racism and oppression.

Then it goes to "well, it doesn't represent slavery: it represents my heritage!" Let's be honest, heritage is often quite selective. I don't walk around waving Irish and German flags even though if I trace it back far enough that's where my ancestors came from. I actually have a lot of German ancestry, but I don't go around slapping swastikas on everything because of a loose genetic connection to a country and trying to claim swastikas aren't about being a Nazi, since the Nazis stole it from sanskrit. So for someone who was born and raised in Minnesota to say that the Confederate flag is about his own personal heritage, yeah, fuck you. If someone wants a flag that represents "southern values" apart from racism like talking slow and fried chicken and church on Sundays, pick a different goddamn flag.

[Johan]

Even here in Flint, Michigan, I've come across at least a dozen people either with the flag on their property or on their car. It's amazing how many of these people are Northern, born and bred, but want to act like they are from the South, peddling that "states' rights" bullshit.

We're transplants to this state due to work. And initially I fucking loved it here. In the southwestern part of the state where we are, its beautiful in the summer and beautiful in the winter. Yeah the snow can suck and all that, but god damn, its like living in a fucking snow globe most of the time. Just one postcard picture after another after another. The low population density means there's no such thing as traffic anywhere, and there's no such thing as waiting in line. I was once sitting in a Taco Bell that literally had myself and two other customers in it at the time when a woman walked in and was completely serious when she said 'god its fucking packed in here'. And lets not forget the low cost of living. Certain job fields pay about the same anywhere in the country. An individual with one of those jobs can move here from the East or West coast and instantly receive a 30%-40% bump in pay due to the cost of living.

But this racist rebel flag shit? This is making me realize that we don't belong here. Sooner or later I think we're going to have to pack up and move back East so we can live amongst our own kind once again.

[Johan]

It does seem to me that a lot of supporters try defending it in two ways, by trying it one way and then trying it the other way if the first doesn't work.

Usually it starts with "stop trying to deny history." Well, it isn't trying to deny history, it's simply trying to not honor racism and oppression.

Then it goes to "well, it doesn't represent slavery: it represents my heritage!"

And here's my response to those assholes. Google any race related protest or event which took place in the south in the 1960's and will find pictures of said event. And at almost every one of those events, you will see white people who showed up to oppose the blacks who were fighting for equal rights. And those white people? They were displaying the rebel flag in almost every case. Were they flying the American flag? Nope. Were they flying their state flag? Nope. They were showing their opposition to blacks having equal rights and they were flying the rebel flag while doing it.

So you can try to argue that the flag does not represent racism all you like. But a bunch of racist assholes back in the 1960's took steps of their own accord to insure that you will forever lose that argument every single time.  It does represent racism. It absolutely represents racism. And if you don't like that, don't get mad at me, get mad at them because they are the ones responsible for it. They could have chosen to fly any flag over their protest and they chose that one. They did. Not me. Them.

[FaithIsFilth]

What I'm really puzzled about is that many of those who want to fly that flag say that it represents history.  Then they say they don't want it to represent the rebel part or the slavery part.  Isn't that history?  How can you ignore part of history (the most important part) and then say it is the history?  The Nazi flag has history.  I'm sure Pol Pot had a flag and it has history.  So what?  Just because something has history does not make that history good or something we want to remember with fondness.  The battle flag represents rebelling so they can keep a group of people in bondage.  What is commendable about that???  Our country is really full of stupid, stupid people.

Doesn't the American flag represent slavery just as much as the battle flag? I don't see people trying to get the American flags taken down. The American flag is more of a favourite for the KKK than the battle flag.

I have no issue with the battle flag. I had a discussion with HBA about this a while back and his point of view made a lot more sense to me than the crap the media pushes on us. It's silly to think that most of the people who choose to display the flag are doing so to show how sad they are that they can't own slaves anymore. HBA said he thinks most of these people just have Southern pride, and that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than thinking all of these people are just butthurt that they aren't allowed to own slaves. Do a lot of racists fly the flag? Yeah, but so what? Plenty of non-racists do as well. Black celebrities wear the battle flag on their clothes for style. It's just a cool looking flag and it could mean anything to anyone. Do we say that the American flag represents only white superiority and white power just because a bunch of KKK members see it that way? No. That would be silly.

[the_antithesis]

They took a flag down.

This is going to change everything.

[Munch]

They took a flag down.

This is going to change everything.

its great though because it opens the doors for the redneck clan to get riled up and come out in public.

[TomFoolery]

Doesn't the American flag represent slavery just as much as the battle flag? I don't see people trying to get the American flags taken down. The American flag is more of a favourite for the KKK than the battle flag.

Why is the Ku Klux Klan the litmus test of whether or not a thing is racist?

The American flag is the flag of our nation and has been in this form since 1777 (with the addition of new stars when states were added to the union). It is a symbol of our country. People can use it however they wish. They can burn it, they can waive it at Klan rallies, they can hang giant ones from overpasses, but it won't change history or the symbolism of that flag. Just because the Klan is using an American symbol along with a white power movement doesn't redefine the American flag exclusively as a symbol of white power.

What we know as the Confederate flag was never actually the official flag of the Confederacy, but rather was the flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia. Yeah, it started out as a poorly recognized war symbol. It became popular in the 1940s when the Dixiecrat party would use it as a symbol resistance to the federal government, which in and of itself isn't bad, except that in following decades it became an important segregationist symbol, featured prominently on the 1956 redesign of Georgia’s state flag, a legislative decision tied directly to the Supreme Court’s decision to desegregate school two years earlier in Brown v. Board of Education. The flag has also been used by the Ku Klux Klan, so if that is your litmus test of racism, well...

It's silly to think that most of the people who choose to display the flag are doing so to show how sad they are that they can't own slaves anymore.

You're the one who seems to think that the flag is just about racists being sad that they can't own slaves any more. It's about more than that. It's about racism and oppression in general.

HBA said he thinks most of these people just have Southern pride, and that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than thinking all of these people are just butthurt that they aren't allowed to own slaves. Do a lot of racists fly the flag? Yeah, but so what? Plenty of non-racists do as well.

Southern pride or blind and poorly understood loyalty to a symbol that has been classically used in a negative way? If you're ok with the definition of American "Southern pride" as simply being "racist asshole" then yes, I suppose it's appropriate.

Black celebrities wear the battle flag on their clothes for style.

The only one I heard about doing it was Kanye West. Yeah, Kanye West.

It's just a cool looking flag and it could mean anything to anyone.

But to most people, it means racial oppression, rebellion against the union and yes, even slavery. It's like you're suggesting any symbol could have whatever meaning anyone wants, which I suppose is true, but it disregards the fact that many symbols do have widely understood meanings. I can't just slap a bunch of swastikas on a Jewish temple and scream at the top of my lungs that I'm not defacing a building with an obvious symbol of Nazism, but rather a symbol of a"lucky or auspicious object" as it was originally defined in sanskrit writings. Your argument is a tool used by racists to defend racism. It's like someone saying the word "nigger" isn't a pejorative term, since it wasn't originally derogatory and because they personally don't find it offensive.

[Hydra009]

They took a flag down.

This is going to change everything.

Eh, it's a start.  Every little bit helps.

[the_antithesis]

Eh, it's a start.

It is?

[FaithIsFilth]

I have no problem with the word nigger. I use it myself from time to time with friends. Nigger can mean white guy, black guy, someone you're cool with, someone you're insulting, etc. Nigger is kind of like the word fuck. The word has evolved and to me it really just means "person".  Nigger is not some evil word, unless that's what you want it to be. I grew up with 2Pac and other rap music, so I see the word how I grew up with it. Words evolve. Look at the word bitch. An insult that has become a term of endearment for many women who call their friends bitch.

I see the battle flag the same way. It has many different meanings, just like bitch and nigger do.

Kanye isn't the only black guy to display the flag.


















Look at all the Uncle Tom's who've never read a book in their life!

[Mike Cl]

Doesn't the American flag represent slavery just as much as the battle flag? I don't see people trying to get the American flags taken down. The American flag is more of a favourite for the KKK than the battle flag.

I have no issue with the battle flag. I had a discussion with HBA about this a while back and his point of view made a lot more sense to me than the crap the media pushes on us. It's silly to think that most of the people who choose to display the flag are doing so to show how sad they are that they can't own slaves anymore. HBA said he thinks most of these people just have Southern pride, and that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than thinking all of these people are just butthurt that they aren't allowed to own slaves. Do a lot of racists fly the flag? Yeah, but so what? Plenty of non-racists do as well. Black celebrities wear the battle flag on their clothes for style. It's just a cool looking flag and it could mean anything to anyone. Do we say that the American flag represents only white superiority and white power just because a bunch of KKK members see it that way? No. That would be silly.

I have no idea who/what HBA is, but I could care less.  Why don't you work on getting your own opinion?  It is 'silly' to think that most who choose to display the flag do so to show that they can't own slaves?  I am always a little flabbergasted when I hear stupid shit like that!!  The average southern soldier did not go to war to protect his own slave holdings.  That would be too expensive for him.  He went to war to protect a way of life, a zeitgeist, if you will; a feeling that they could own slaves if they became rich enough and that owning slaves was a good and moral thing.  It was allowed and encouraged by the morals of their society and of christian morality, as well.  Why do you think the Jim Crow laws came to be?  To keep the darky in his place, to ensure that white was always better.  That was why the South fought the war.  That is the history of it--that is the heritage of it.  Why is that something to be prideful of?  Why is that a good thing?  That feeling produced the KKK as simply the manifestation of the southern zeitgeist.  The confederate battle flag has also taken on the mantle of all that.  Why is that a good symbol?  Prideful--only for the skin heads, racists and those who believe in one group owning another group. 

All of the 'arguments' you put forth about the confederate battle flag could be applied to the Nazi flag as well.  It represents just a period in history.  The average German soldier did not kill Jews, just as the average rebel did now own slaves.  So what?  They fought for a cause--and that cause was evil.  Why should that history, that heritage be honored in any way?  Remembered, yes, but honored???  NO!!!  Just because a flag is 'cool looking' does not make it right.  Are you really that shallow????  Can you  read?   Have you ever been to the south?  Do you know any southerners?

Something else to think about--that is the confederate 'battle' flag.  Why call it that?  Because it was developed to keep friendly fire down.  At the start of the Civil War, the US and Confederate flags looked too much alike.  So the battle flag was developed and used to make sure the soldiers were firing on the correct group.  Why not display the Confederate States flag and not the battle flag?  Not that I like either one much, for they honor the same rotten, evil system. 

As for the US flag being equated to the confederate battle flag--are you really that fucking stupid???  The United States Flag represents the United States--all of it--all of it's history, all of it's heritage.  Yes, the Civil War is part of that.  But you see, the United States officially and with military might, officially opposed the Southern Way of Life.  The South lost.  And the way of live was repudiated.  The Confederate States is NOT part of the heritage of the US flag.  The Southern Heritage was rejected.  Officially.  The two flags do not equate.  It would be like thinking that the modern German flag also would include the Nazi flag as part of it's heritage.  The US flag represents to each person whatever that person wants it to.  But officially, it represents all 50 states and our collective history. 

You want me to believe that main stream black entertainers were the battle flag?  Really.  And the US flag is more a favorite of the KKK than the battle flag?  Really! 

[Munch]

It is?

I think so. Whats happened in the past can't be undone, but what happens now and moving on from it, every step away from giving those shitty times in the past credit, is a step in the right direction. Every step gay rights took over the last century has lead to gay people being able to marry now and adopt.

Steps to back a difference.