Confederate flag to be removed from South Carolina capitol

[Mermaid]

There's not a thing in this world that a whole lot of people aren't bothered by.

Perhaps it would serve you to think about people other than yourself.

[Mermaid]

Where did I say it's not widely deemed offensive? Who the heck would question something like that? Where do you get this stuff from? Of course the word "nigger" is extremely offensive to a whole lot of folks.

Including myself. It's not OK to use it.

[FaithIsFilth]

It is kind of obvious that not all of any group is going to believe the same thing.  Basically, what I think you are saying is that there should be no censorship for anything.  That nothing is really out of bounds.  That anybody can say anything to  anybody.  Is that what you think?  (And yes, this is an honest question--please correct me if I am wrong.)

Sure, anybody can say pretty much anything to anybody, outside of threatening someone's life which is against the law. Isn't that how things are now? Of course I am in favour of free speech. That doesn't mean I'm not extremely respectful to the people I come into contact with in my daily life. Obviously I'm not going to go into the ghetto calling every black guy I see nigga, nigger, bitch, asshole, soft, dummy, etc, because I don't have a death wish, but I will use all of those words if it's a close friend of mine in a playful manner because I know they are ok with it, and they dish it back out, with no offence meant and no offence taken by either of us.

[FaithIsFilth]

Perhaps it would serve you to think about people other than yourself.

That's actually exactly what I was doing. I don't give a shit about the battle flag. Never have and never will. I'm not even American.

[drunkenshoe]

I'm not American either. I'm also not black. It's offensive to me.

[Mermaid]

That's actually exactly what I was doing. I don't give a shit about the battle flag. Never have and never will. I'm not even American.

Really? It seems to me that you were casting aspersions and anyone who is offended by words and the Confederate flag, and insinuating that they are wrong for feeling this way, or are too sensitive. What YOU think seems to be at the center of this.

[FaithIsFilth]

I didn't claim anyone was wrong for being offended by the flag or disliking the flag. We're allowed to be offended by anything we want to be offended by.

I don't even care that the flag was taken down. My main problem in this thread was reading claims like "only skinheads and those who wish to own another person would be proud of the battle flag". Tell that to the blacks, liberals, atheists, gays, etc. that also choose to fly the flag.

[Shiranu]

I didn't claim anyone was wrong for being offended by the flag or disliking the flag. We're allowed to be offended by anything we want to be offended by.

I don't even care that the flag was taken down. My main problem in this thread was reading claims like "only skinheads and those who wish to own another person would be proud of the battle flag". Tell that to the blacks, liberals, atheists, gays, etc. that also choose to fly the flag.

There are gays that are proud of the Vatican, even at the height of its homophobia. There were Jews that were proud Nazis. What does that prove, other than that people can be turnt to like things even against their own self interest? The only people who have legitimate reason to be proud of the Stars and Bars are those who it represents; rich, white slaveowning males.

[TomFoolery]

Where did I say it's not widely deemed offensive? Who the heck would question something like that? Where do you get this stuff from?

I get this stuff from you, when you say things like:

I have no problem with the word nigger. I use it myself from time to time with friends. Nigger can mean white guy, black guy, someone you're cool with, someone you're insulting, etc. Nigger is kind of like the word fuck. The word has evolved and to me it really just means "person".  Nigger is not some evil word, unless that's what you want it to be.

Like seriously, if you have such a flippant attitude about using it and you use it with your friends, why not go to a predominantly black community and take the Die Hard with a Vengeance challenge?


You say yourself that you're not even American. I am. I grew up in Texas and I'm currently living in South Carolina (Columbia as a matter of fact) where this whole thing started (the Civil War, the Confederate flag in front of a government building, etc.) I can tell you from firsthand experience your ideas about racism in the American South aren't exactly accurate. You aren't the standard by which offense is measured. Just because you don't care about a segregationist symbol or derogatory term doesn't mean that other people don't, which I suppose you've admitted. But it reeks of a air of hipster cynicism, wherein you try to justify your own lack of offense by pretending to be weary and irreverent about the things that don't offend you, which allows you instead to gripe about the supposed "PC culture" or "offended generation." I don't understand how having strong feelings about things has somehow achieved an air of "uncoolness," which is a great way to discourage activism and perpetuate things like racism.

[Mike Cl]

Sure, anybody can say pretty much anything to anybody, outside of threatening someone's life which is against the law. Isn't that how things are now? Of course I am in favour of free speech. That doesn't mean I'm not extremely respectful to the people I come into contact with in my daily life. Obviously I'm not going to go into the ghetto calling every black guy I see nigga, nigger, bitch, asshole, soft, dummy, etc, because I don't have a death wish, but I will use all of those words if it's a close friend of mine in a playful manner because I know they are ok with it, and they dish it back out, with no offence meant and no offence taken by either of us.

Yeah, I hear ya about that.  I say things to good friends--back in the day, we used to call it fat-fucking with somebody.  But even on those terms, I was careful that what I said was politically incorrect in a way that the other was okay with.  It is easy to go too far, even in that type of friendly exchange.  But that is not what I was talking about--and I'm not sure you were either.  The battle flag is a symbol that is displayed on govt. buildings, which is supposed to reflect all of us.  Clearly it does not.  For the same reason it should not be displayed in any govt. capacity.  If individuals want to display it, so be it.  People can be as ignorant as they wish. 

[the_antithesis]

Symbols are very powerful. So much powerful than the hypermodern man sitting in front of the computer thinking he is 'out' and untouched by that shit. He isn't. None of us are.

I disagree.

The problem isn't that flag. The problem was a young man who went to a bible study in a church and even though he was reconsidering his plan because the people there were so nice to him, he still pulled out a gun and opened fire.

It is a symbol and only a symbol. Take it down. Outlaw it if you want. But all that will happen is the bigots will need to adopt a new symbol.

I'm reminded of this:



source

There's a real problem here and taking down a flag is the last thing that needed to be done. But it's easier to accomplish and then everyone can pat themselves on the back and feel real good about accomplishing something.

[drunkenshoe]

I disagree.

The problem isn't that flag. The problem was a young man who went to a bible study in a church and even though he was reconsidering his plan because the people there were so nice to him, he still pulled out a gun and opened fire.

It is a symbol and only a symbol. Take it down. Outlaw it if you want. But all that will happen is the bigots will need to adopt a new symbol.

There's a real problem here and taking down a flag is the last thing that needed to be done. But it's easier to accomplish and then everyone can pat themselves on the back and feel real good about accomplishing something.

You seem to look at this as something people see as a conclusive action. No, it is not. It's as symbolic as the flag itself. It's happening now, because it has become beneficial to the society now. Like legalising marriage in the US. The state in your country was powerful enough to 'force' legalise marriage, pick a fight about it and speed the process some time ago. However, it wouldn't work, it would fail, because it wasn't beneficial then. 

The action of taking down the flag by official means, first of all just as 'taking down a flag' has been done for a very long time in history, it is very effective and it is also the same thing with a clan chief taking the symbolic staff of the once praised warrior to declare him stripped off his powers. He was once legitimate, now he isn't. He is officially declared to be removed from collective memory and history of that culture. At least stripped from any positive connotations for the thick to get what it means.

It's the fucking Confederate flag, anti. The Civil War. It's the fucking national flag of the Confederate States of America. If United States of America of today was one person and if we could dig in her mind, cut out all the memories; issues, conflicts, hatred, love, good/bad, belligerent characteristics, the whole culture that got shaped and made her, we would find the Civil War under every stone, a war as the way I see never really ended, but just got transformed and transformed, changed into this and that, got carried away, turned around and upside down, pulled from sides...whatever, it is still alive.

How is that it is wrong or an easy thing to get it down, so means nothing?


The guy who opened fire, the bigots who will get a new symbol are all included in the picture I tried to draw in my first post, so the picture we live in now. None of these things are in dispute of how powerful the symbols, their acceptence by a society or refusal in time is. It's a part of the same pattern. Same principles, same influence, same bullshit. And do you think there wouldn't be people opening fire around with this or that reason without outlawing a flag? Setting up KKK kind of organisations?

Of course they will find a new symbol, may be years later design a new flag. May be there will even be violence about this somewhere soon or in near future. That's not bad news. You don't get anything real without conflict. Are they going to get radicalised openly in political basis? That would even be better. Let the colours go out.

Do you have any idea how important a gesture this is to tell the people of a subculture who have lived the identity of being the foundation of the United States for hundreds of years, that they are NOT even legitimate what so ever anymore in any sense? Is it just the flag going down? Are you aware what has been going on in your country for the last few years? They keep getting cornered and cornered. It's one thing to these fuckers to feel that they are not the soveriegn class, another thing to declare it offically that they are not a legitimate part of the culture, making it an example.  I am sure you can see it even if you don't believe it is real, because I can from at the other side of the world.

Nobody thinks this is some victory and end of things. It's a start. It is going to take time. Nobody who is conscious enough to get the importance of the gesture of taking that flag down is foolish enough to think it is a fucking revolution.

Outlawing a symbol of an ideology of a large group is only dangerous in long term IF you are unsuccessful in transforming the generations. The worst thing that could happen that they get organised and go underground. Is that what you mean? That kind of an 'organised movement' would not be like a few right wing nutters or christian extremists opening fire around to shoot a dozen. Not by the historical background, nor the nature of the ideology they have, thinking they have nothing to lose when they get this cornered. It would be a real size domestic terrorism no media can cover up or sweep under the carpet with some 'psyhcopath' getting his hands on some weapon closet. It would upset everything. And I'd like to see them trying something like that in the United States. That's not the Middle East. Americans do not know about that kind and scale of domestic terrorism. When it comes to people dropping dead every day, lack of public safety, social life going down and most importantly, eventually effecting domestic economy, that Uncle Sam once they defined it with themselves would shove those weapons of freedom up their religious ass so fast, they can't even find time to learn to spell the word 'confederate' correctly. 

The current domestic terrorism you have is the neccessary evil, any political side can make something out of it  for themselves, media runs on it with countless benefits -domestic or international- and it is not following a constant pattern with an organisation behind it. When that kind of shit happens, that huge country of 50 states and 310 mils. that see themselves so apart would get shrunk so little, so fast there is no benefit in to for any group, there would be nothing left but to take it out brutally. 

[Actually, thinking about this scenario now, that would also give a good reason for starting to beat down some pro-gun policies too. The thing you guys believe never likely to change. There is nothing more convincing than people dropping dead around in a good rate.]

Yeah well, these are all made up scenarios, but if you mean southern racism growing as a specific culture and spread deeply within because of these kinds of actions, you need constant bad economy, weak state to have that as a real threat. US doesn't have a weak state. You guys don't know what is to live under a weak state. If you had a weak state, things would get messed up years ago. If democrats continue to stay in power and do something real to support correcting the wages, poverty, unemployement, education, equality in the coming decade that outlawing would be very rewarding to American society.

You'd be amazed to see how societies get transformed after a tipping point is achieved. Masses do not have a good memory in this sense and it is a natural development to make something good out of it with a tipping point.

Well yes, I wish there was a real left in your country, hell a European style socialist state to occur some day soon for ALL OUR sake, but unfortunately that's just a wet fantasy. So you have to go with this and it is a start.

You guys also miss a lot about why some things have to happen in the USA in an open, blatant manner. This is an important development even it is successful or not in the short term. They should have made a far big international deal out of it.










 

[Mike Cl]

We tend to see this battle flag fight as an ending of something or the start of something.  I see it as an event in the middle of something.  And that something is an acceptance of people of color as being inherently equal.  This has been going on for a very long time.  And the progress (which for me is coming to a full acceptance of the premise that color is only a very minor aspect of a person) has been agonizingly slow--still is.  But the flag coming down is a tiny, tiny tipping point.  We may be entering a time when that full acceptance side will gain ground fairly quickly, for awhile.  I do not see this fight ending any time soon.  It will rage on for way, way too long into the future.  But the battle flag as a symbol being pulled down and being tarnished as any kind of positive thing, is an important symbolic victory.  Not a huge victory.  But a tiny, but still important little watershed event.  I'd like to think this battle will be won in my lifetime--it won't be.  Nor in my children's time or my grandchildren's time, either.  I think more victories for my side will pile up, but this sort of thing takes ages to fully change. 

[Shiranu]

"The Confederate flag does not represent hate..."

"I'LL HANG YOUR BLACK ASS!!!" "IT'S A WHITE REVOLUTION!"

Righty-o, then.

[FaithIsFilth]

"The Confederate flag does not represent hate..."

To 67 percent of Americans it doesn't. The whole offence thing to me is just a little funny, because when I look at the American flag, I see a whole lot of ugly history, and I also see a whole lot of ugliness that is going on today under that flag. I don't, like the guy who said the battle flag is only for skinheads, in turn say that the only people who would fly the American flag are those that support the death of over a million brown people for a small geopolitical gain, with millions more to die and have their lives ruined over the coming decades. What do you think all those black people protesting in the streets think of your American flag? Do they think it's a good symbol to be respected? You know what else that flag represents to me? All those people in jail because of the war on drugs. That's slavery right there, still going on today under the American flag. Slavery is going on today under the stars and stripes, not the battle flag. I don't display the Canadian flag, and if I was an American, I definitely would not be flying the American flag. I have zero problem with anyone flying the American flag though. I have zero problem with them flying it in my neighbourhood. I'm not going to tell these people what the flag should represent for them.

I know the American flag is the flag of a country so that's different and the flag will obviously be flown on government buildings, but it being the flag of a country is not relevant when talking about people who display the flag in their homes or outside of their homes. The Nazi flag comparison is not a good one. It's much more obvious what that flag means. People who fly that flag have no problem telling you how they feel, so let's not act like these are the same things. Only 33 percent of Americans find the battle flag racist. Would we get those same numbers if the question was about the Nazi flag? Not anywhere close, so that's why it's a bad comparison.

Of course there are a huge amount of racists in the south. I never meant to dispute that. Being racist doesn't mean you care about slavery. These are two separate things. You guys can not read the minds of all of these people, and neither can I. Slavery was the reality of the times back then (just like in our time we have slaves in jail, and most of us own things that were made by people overseas working for slave wages). That doesn't mean most of these people still care about slavery, or are flying the flag because they mean to honour slavery. There are many different levels of racism. One can be racist and think whites are superior, while having no problem interacting with blacks and being respectful towards them, and that racist person may very well see mostly just Southern pride when they look at their battle flag. There are also those who still wish black people could be bought and owned, or who wish that blacks were shipped back to Africa or whatever. I'm very aware that these people exist.