This is how atheists need to understand our connection to religion.
"The problem with writing about religion is that you run the risk of offending sincerely religious people, and then they come after you with machetes. So I am going to be very sensitive, here, which is not easy, because the thing about religion is that everybody else's always appears stupid.
For example, if you read about some religious sect in India that believes God wants people to drink their own urine, you don't say to yourself, "Isn't it amazing, the diversity of belief systems man has developed in his never-ending quest to understand and cope with the intricate moral dilemmas posed by a complex and uncertain world?" No, what you say to yourself is, "These people have the brains of a trout."
Meanwhile, over in India, the sect members are getting a major chuckle over the fact that some American basketball players cross themselves before they take foul shots. "As if God cares about foul shots!" the sect members howl, tears streaming down their faces. "Say, is this my urine or yours?"
http://www.comedy-lounge.com/jokes/BarryReligion.htm
Sooooo.. your saying dumb fuck theists are their cult behaviour is something we should just ignore and let them carry on doing?
Should apply to the forced marriage and rape of 9 year olds?
Quote from: Munch on April 29, 2015, 04:59:24 PM
Sooooo.. your saying dumb fuck theists are their cult behaviour is something we should just ignore and let them carry on doing?
Should apply to the forced marriage and rape of 9 year olds?
Those are some pretty extreme examples. Religion has long been the means by which a society condones evil. But that does not mean that religion is evil.. it is the people using it. You are trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Actually religion pretty much invents evil as a scapegoat, and then twists immoral acts to be acceptable standards in their eyes.
Giveme, do me a favor and pick an avatar? I don't care if it sucks but you're been popping up all over The forum and i like a 'face' to keep in mind when talking with or about someone.
If you have time to start all these threads you should technically have The time to pick one.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 05:06:50 PM
Those are some pretty extreme examples. Religion has long been the means by which a society condones evil. But that does not mean that religion is evil.. it is the people using it. You are trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
That's quite the doublespeak there, Giveme. Hitler wasn't evil, just his ideas. Stalin wasn't evil, just his actions. The pope ordering the crusades was not evil, just his twisted ideas? That makes no sense!
In the case of religion, the baby stillborn--it needs to go out with the bathwater.
Quote from: Munch on April 29, 2015, 05:33:05 PM
Actually religion pretty much invents evil as a scapegoat, and then twists immoral acts to be acceptable standards in their eyes.
That's a good observation. Then they have the audacity to think everyone else should conform to their views and morals as if we can't decide that on our own. Christianity is way overdue for an update. But if there was a way to wipe out the religion something else just as ignorant would pop up and replace it. The problem is not religion... it's human behavior.
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on April 29, 2015, 06:08:10 PM
Giveme, do me a favor and pick an avatar? I don't care if it sucks but you're been popping up all over The forum and i like a 'face' to keep in mind when talking with or about someone.
If you have time to start all these threads you should technically have The time to pick one.
Thank you for suggesting that. I do need an identity. Btw, I love your name. :-)
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 29, 2015, 06:37:30 PM
That's quite the doublespeak there, Giveme. Hitler wasn't evil, just his ideas. Stalin wasn't evil, just his actions. The pope ordering the crusades was not evil, just his twisted ideas? That makes no sense!
In the case of religion, the baby stillborn--it needs to go out with the bathwater.
Hahaha... it should have been aborted.
If the actions of a religious person never affected me or others in any negative way, then I wouldn't care.
I wouldn't care at all about some idiot talking about how the planet is 6,000 years old and how evolution is "liberal propaganda" if there was literally zero chance of that person getting elected and passing any laws whatsoever.
Givemeareason You seem so ready to defend religion but what I want to ask is Why?
There is no need for religion. And now that we have science more and more people are falling away from their superstitious teachings and they aren't replacing it with anything else. Do you have people converting from one religion to another? sure. But there are not too many new religions popping up all over the place to replace the old ones. More people are becoming atheists especially the young. Also I think access to the internet has helped with that as well.
Do you think that we would be better off with out religion or don't you?
Quote from: doorknob on April 30, 2015, 01:48:04 PM
Givemeareason You seem so ready to defend religion but what I want to ask is Why?
There is no need for religion. And now that we have science more and more people are falling away from their superstitious teachings and they aren't replacing it with anything else. Do you have people converting from one religion to another? sure. But there are not too many new religions popping up all over the place to replace the old ones. More people are becoming atheists especially the young. Also I think access to the internet has helped with that as well.
Do you think that we would be better off with out religion or don't you?
I don't think we as a species are ready relinquish religion. Many are not rational.
I feel like you evaded the question.
Sure maybe that's true that many humans are not ready to dispense with religion but that's no reason to support it. That's just making a statement of how you view the world right now.
Do you support religion or not?
Quote from: doorknob on April 30, 2015, 02:38:47 PM
I feel like you evaded the question.
Sure maybe that's true that many humans are not ready to dispense with religion but that's no reason to support it. That's just making a statement of how you view the world right now.
Do you support religion or not?
Yes, I do support it. As stupid as it is.
That's like supporting a terrorist because they have a good cause while being evil. :wall: Any good the religion does can be done without religion, but only religion can do good and make the world a living hell like objecting to birth control and never questioning authority. :wall: :fU: Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on April 30, 2015, 04:10:55 PM
That's like supporting a terrorist because they have a good cause while being evil. :wall: Any good the religion does can be done without religion, but only religion can do good and make the world a living hell like objecting to birth control and never questioning authority. :wall: :fU: Solitary
That has no comparison to terrorism at all. Terrorism is always based on extreme and radical ideas. Religion by itself is most certainly not. Anyone can distort anything. If becoming atheist is from thinking rationally then we also should be leaving our black and white views behind as well.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 04:47:53 PM
That has no comparison to terrorism at all. Terrorism is always based on extreme and radical ideas. Religion by itself is most certainly not. Anyone can distort anything. If becoming atheist is from thinking rationally then we also should be leaving our black and white views behind as well.
There you go again, Givemeareason (oh, the irony of that name) not giving any reasons or ideas or data to support your 'no comparison' statement. Why is it no comparison? And is terrorism always based on extreme and radical ideas? Bullshit. The rebels in the US Civil war used terror all the time--the rebel yell was for that, the creation of terror. Terror on the battlefield or for political gain has been used from before bibical times. God uses terror all the time in the bible. So, your claim is just full of shit. Can you back up any of your claim????? Of course not, for you don't discuss things or give reasons for your thinking--just change the subject or ignore it.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 01:36:35 PM
Thank you for suggesting that. I do need an identity. Btw, I love your name. :-)
Thanks
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 06:36:17 PM
There you go again, Givemeareason (oh, the irony of that name) not giving any reasons or ideas or data to support your 'no comparison' statement. Why is it no comparison? And is terrorism always based on extreme and radical ideas? Bullshit. The rebels in the US Civil war used terror all the time--the rebel yell was for that, the creation of terror. Terror on the battlefield or for political gain has been used from before bibical times. God uses terror all the time in the bible. So, your claim is just full of shit. Can you back up any of your claim????? Of course not, for you don't discuss things or give reasons for your thinking--just change the subject or ignore it.
When I say "Give me a reason" I am trying to suggest that I am a skeptic. I am not providing reasons but rather asking for them. I do appreciate your attempts in trying to get to know me though and I will be happy to interject my ideas anywhere they might be appropriate. Do you really think I am that bad at expressing myself or are you just struggling to understand me?
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 03:01:05 PM
Yes, I do support it. As stupid as it is.
So does this mean you support stupidity? or things that breed stupidity?
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 07:21:29 PM
When I say "Give me a reason" I am trying to suggest that I am a skeptic. I am not providing reasons but rather asking for them. I do appreciate your attempts in trying to get to know me though and I will be happy to interject my ideas anywhere they might be appropriate. Do you really think I am that bad at expressing myself or are you just struggling to understand me?
How can one get to understand vapor? I'm not struggling, just trying to call you on your blowinginthewind. So far, there is nothing to understand. Well, except how one could possibly be so vapid.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 30, 2015, 04:47:53 PM
That has no comparison to terrorism at all. Terrorism is always based on extreme and radical ideas. Religion by itself is most certainly not. Anyone can distort anything. If becoming atheist is from thinking rationally then we also should be leaving our black and white views behind as well.
Your only reason to be here is to disrupt the forum, in other words you are a troll. The terrorist are not distorting their religion they are basing what they are doing on the very foundation of the Judeo-Christian, Islamic tradition with the Old Testament which is as radical and extreme ideas as one can get. You are just being and ass, and that includes the hole. There is more to being an atheist besides logic and sound and critical thinking that is done best by psychopaths, like being an authentic human being with the higher forms of feelings and emotions like love. Being an atheist isn't about black and white thinking or views anymore than seeing actual black and white values are. You are giving religious views the same credence as atheism like fairy tales and disbelief in them deserves scorn because they are so delightful. That is so childish and silly from an adult to assume. You need to grow up! Solitary
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 30, 2015, 08:18:03 PM
How can one get to understand vapor? I'm not struggling, just trying to call you on your blowinginthewind. So far, there is nothing to understand. Well, except how one could possibly be so vapid.
Well, Mike, I speak in similar ways in real life as well. The only thing lacking here is I am unable to convey my emotions very well. I have never been told that my ideas are vapid. I am generally pretty well accepted out here and respected as well. I also try to follow the Golden Rule just as you do as it is a very logical and empathetic way to behave. I am not sure why you find me so frustrating.
Quote from: Solitary on April 30, 2015, 10:33:50 PM
Your only reason to be here is to disrupt the forum, in other words you are a troll. The terrorist are not distorting their religion they are basing what they are doing on the very foundation of the Judeo-Christian, Islamic tradition with the Old Testament which is as radical and extreme ideas as one can get. You are just being and ass, and that includes the hole. There is more to being an atheist besides logic and sound and critical thinking that is done best by psychopaths, like being an authentic human being with the higher forms of feelings and emotions like love. Being an atheist isn't about black and white thinking or views anymore than seeing actual black and white values are. You are giving religious views the same credence as atheism like fairy tales and disbelief in them deserves scorn because they are so delightful. That is so childish and silly from an adult to assume. You need to grow up! Solitary
It is pretty apparent you are viewing me with scorn. You see me as a disgrace to atheism and acting childishly. I am aghast that someone who has presumably made the transition to atheism can hold such views. Are you revealing yourself as being one of the people who complained about me. Are you trying to entrap me into some stupid reaction that would get me banned from the board. I have no idea who you are but I have certainly encountered such treacherous behavior in real life before. So please tell me how you came to these conclusions or would that be too disruptive?
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 01, 2015, 12:54:27 AM
It is pretty apparent you are viewing me with scorn. You see me as a disgrace to atheism and acting childishly. I am aghast that someone who has presumably made the transition to atheism can hold such views. Are you revealing yourself as being one of the people who complained about me. Are you trying to entrap me into some stupid reaction that would get me banned from the board. I have no idea who you are but I have certainly encountered such treacherous behavior in real life before. So please tell me how you came to these conclusions or would that be too disruptive?
Go back and read all of my comments directed toward you. Then you will have an idea of why so many on this board find you not just frustrating, not just vapid, but downright incoherent.
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 01, 2015, 08:54:10 AM
Go back and read all of my comments directed toward you. Then you will have an idea of why so many on this board find you not just frustrating, not just vapid, but downright incoherent.
Are you sure I am incoherent or am I just not conforming?
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 01, 2015, 09:06:29 AM
Are you sure I am incoherent or am I just not conforming?
I don't stutter--can you not read???!!!!
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 01, 2015, 12:54:27 AM
It is pretty apparent you are viewing me with scorn. You see me as a disgrace to atheism and acting childishly. I am aghast that someone who has presumably made the transition to atheism can hold such views. Are you revealing yourself as being one of the people who complained about me. Are you trying to entrap me into some stupid reaction that would get me banned from the board. I have no idea who you are but I have certainly encountered such treacherous behavior in real life before. So please tell me how you came to these conclusions or would that be too disruptive?
I made the transition from no belief to atheism, no belief, in superstition when I was six years old. You are really fucking paranoid because I never dis report you---feeling guilty? I came to these conclusions by you responding or not responding like a troll that I have seen at forums for the last thirty years.
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 04:29:18 PM"The problem with writing .. my urine or yours?"
http://www.comedy-lounge.com/jokes/BarryReligion.htm
Now I understand that it was at comedy-lounge, but it is utter foolishness; and I think such jokes should not be made. I am a Hindu and a strong atheist. Hindus do consider 'pancha-gavyas' as sacred (milk, curd, butter, cow-urine, cow-dung). Cow-dung, of course, is a useful item with us, either used as fuel or in plastering adobe dwellings. But no God asks us to drink cow-urine. It is a later addition and is sometimes used in re-conversion of people from other religions back to Hinduism, a sort of punishment and acceptance of the fault of moving away from Hinduism. But, then, rules about what one is allowed to say differ from one country to another, many a times leading to unpleasant situations (Charles Hebdo). In India this kind of flaming is not allowed.
I had my beautiful avatara. I do not know why it does not show today. I would try to get it back.
Quote from: Aupmanyav on May 02, 2015, 11:01:37 AM
Now I understand that it was at comedy-lounge, but it is utter foolishness; and I think such jokes should not be made. I am a Hindu and a strong atheist. Hindus do consider 'pancha-gavyas' as sacred (milk, curd, butter, cow-urine, cow-dung). Cow-dung, of course, is a useful item with us, either used as fuel or in plastering adobe dwellings. But no God asks us to drink cow-urine. It is a later addition and is sometimes used in re-conversion of people from other religions back to Hinduism, a sort of punishment and acceptance of the fault of moving away from Hinduism. But, then, rules about what one is allowed to say differ from one country to another, many a times leading to unpleasant situations (Charles Hebdo). In India this kind of flaming is not allowed.
I had my beautiful avatara. I do not know why it does not show today. I would try to get it back.
Aupmanyav, could you help lift the veil of my ignorance? How can one be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time????
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 02, 2015, 11:13:06 AMAupmanyav, could you help lift the veil of my ignorance? How can one be a Hindu and an atheist at the same time?
Sure. I think you have heard the term 'advaita' - non-duality. There are various strains of 'advaita' Hinduism. I follow the strict form of 'advaita' - that means there is just one entity in the universe. That obviously is 'physical energy'. That is what we started with at the time of Big-Bang. So, for one who believes in non-duality, there cannot be a God or Goddess. Hindus denote this single entity which constitutes the universe as 'Brahman'. That is what the lines in my signature say. The second line is very old and from an upanishad. The first line is from Sankara (First Sankaracharya, probably 8th Century), Hindu religious teacher and philosopher who re-established 'advaita' as a major Hindu philosophy. There are various other such lines from other Upanishads also, another famous one being 'Tat twam asi' normally translated as "Thou art that", but one cannot choose all in one's signature.
Quote from: Aupmanyav on May 02, 2015, 11:27:13 AM
Sure. I think you have heard the term 'advaita' - non-duality. There are various strains of 'advaita' Hinduism. I follow the strict form of 'advaita' - that means there is just one entity in the universe. That obviously is 'physical energy'. That is what we started with at the time of Big-Bang. So, for one who believes in non-duality, there cannot be a God or Goddess. Hindus denote this single entity which constitutes the universe as 'Brahman'. That is what the lines in my signature say. The second line is very old and from an upanishad. The first line is from Sankara (First Sankaracharya, probably 8th Century), Hindu religious teacher and philosopher who re-established 'advaita' as a major Hindu philosophy. There are various other such lines from other Upanishads also, another famous one being 'Tat twam asi' normally translated as "Thou art that", but one cannot choose all in one's signature.
Thanks for your reply. So, does physical energy have any intelligence attached to it? Any idea from whence it came? Does it provide for an afterlife?
What's with this guy?
He quotes Dave Fucking Barry and that's it?
What is the purpose of this thread except to waste time?
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 02, 2015, 11:46:47 AMSo, does physical energy have any intelligence attached to it? Any idea from whence it came? Does it provide for an afterlife?
I will not term that as intelligence, but it responds, like in the double-slit experiment. At that level, we have many not understood things. Science is at it and we will get the replies as they progress. No idea, again the answer is not available today. Though we may say that it is eternal, it may have arisen from 'absolute nothing'. Who knows if existence and non-existence are related or not as mentioned in the Hindu Creation Hymn in RigVeda?
"Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm
Since physical energy (Brahman) is the only entity in the universe, there is no question of death. It has been around for 13.75 billion years and will be there perhaps for even a longer time. If you are talking of the death of an individual, that is only a change of form. The atoms from a dead body get into the environment and participate in infinite lives.
Quote from: Aupmanyav on May 02, 2015, 11:01:37 AM
Now I understand that it was at comedy-lounge, but it is utter foolishness; and I think such jokes should not be made. I am a Hindu and a strong atheist. Hindus do consider 'pancha-gavyas' as sacred (milk, curd, butter, cow-urine, cow-dung). Cow-dung, of course, is a useful item with us, either used as fuel or in plastering adobe dwellings. But no God asks us to drink cow-urine. It is a later addition and is sometimes used in re-conversion of people from other religions back to Hinduism, a sort of punishment and acceptance of the fault of moving away from Hinduism. But, then, rules about what one is allowed to say differ from one country to another, many a times leading to unpleasant situations (Charles Hebdo). In India this kind of flaming is not allowed.
I had my beautiful avatara. I do not know why it does not show today. I would try to get it back.
I am the person who made the very post you refer to. And I am so sorry I did that now and I am so sorry I have offended you. I am just a bumbling old fool. Sarcastic humor should not be here. You are so correct. Welcome.
Quote from: Aupmanyav on May 02, 2015, 01:55:00 PM
I will not term that as intelligence, but it responds, like in the double-slit experiment. At that level, we have many not understood things. Science is at it and we will get the replies as they progress. No idea, again the answer is not available today. Though we may say that it is eternal, it may have arisen from 'absolute nothing'. Who knows if existence and non-existence are related or not as mentioned in the Hindu Creation Hymn in RigVeda?
"Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10129.htm
Since physical energy (Brahman) is the only entity in the universe, there is no question of death. It has been around for 13.75 billion years and will be there perhaps for even a longer time. If you are talking of the death of an individual, that is only a change of form. The atoms from a dead body get into the environment and participate in infinite lives.
Thanks for your replies. Have to admit I'm not familiar with those concepts. Will have to do a little poking around the net. Thanks.
Quote from: Aupmanyav on May 02, 2015, 11:27:13 AM
Sure. I think you have heard the term 'advaita' - non-duality. There are various strains of 'advaita' Hinduism. I follow the strict form of 'advaita' - that means there is just one entity in the universe. That obviously is 'physical energy'. That is what we started with at the time of Big-Bang. So, for one who believes in non-duality, there cannot be a God or Goddess. Hindus denote this single entity which constitutes the universe as 'Brahman'. That is what the lines in my signature say. The second line is very old and from an upanishad. The first line is from Sankara (First Sankaracharya, probably 8th Century), Hindu religious teacher and philosopher who re-established 'advaita' as a major Hindu philosophy. There are various other such lines from other Upanishads also, another famous one being 'Tat twam asi' normally translated as "Thou art that", but one cannot choose all in one's signature.
I had a girlfriend that based her life on Hindu beliefs and practiced their rituals, and wouldn't even step on a bug. I personally follow the dictates of Buddha's original teachings of Buddhism. We are all composed of energy that transcends death, which goes along with modern physics, but that is our essence, not who we are like Deepak Chopra believes, in my opinion or else. And someone new here said atheists should accept the religious viewpoints as if there are any we don't. Sarcasm be noted! Solitary
Sol, Buddha is my guru (I do not consider any Indian religion as different from Hinduism, and Buddha in particular is the ninth avatara of Lord Vishnu for us). Kalama Sutta has always guided me. Is it any different from Occam's Razor? :)
SmOff I am Kalkin! Don't tell Krishna that I stole Radha from him on my white horse, and that I'm ready to start the golden age. :shhh: :syda: :flowers: Solitary
Quote from: Givemeareason on April 29, 2015, 04:29:18 PM
This is how atheists need to understand our connection to religion...
I disagree with the premise of the connection between atheism and religion.
All religions require faith in spiritual beings or entities. Religion requires the 'faithful' to embrace dogma established hundreds, sometimes thousands of years ago, and to ignore scientific and empirical evidence of the workings of the universe.
Atheism is the
rejection of spiritual beings and sky-daddies. There are no rational reasons for atheists to understand a connection with religion. Because there are none. If you feel some connection with religion, then you are certainly NOT atheist.
I mean, the whole
point of atheism is to
disconnect from religion.
The Judeo-Christian, Islamic religions requires belief and trust in God. Atheism does not believe in, nor trust in God. Where is the connection with faith in God with no reliable evidence, and no faith or belief, nor trust in God? Please explain the connection! We are all human is one, but that isn't a connection between trust and belief in God. The connection between religious belief and atheism is a Non Sequitur in sound logic and reasoning. A connection as to be being human is sound logic and reasoning however, and we should accept religious people that do good, but not those that do great harm with their religious dogma. Is this what you are getting at GMR? Solitary
Quote from: Aupmanyav on May 02, 2015, 11:01:37 AM
Now I understand that it was at comedy-lounge, but it is utter foolishness; and I think such jokes should not be made. I am a Hindu and a strong atheist. Hindus do consider 'pancha-gavyas' as sacred (milk, curd, butter, cow-urine, cow-dung). Cow-dung, of course, is a useful item with us, either used as fuel or in plastering adobe dwellings. But no God asks us to drink cow-urine. It is a later addition and is sometimes used in re-conversion of people from other religions back to Hinduism, a sort of punishment and acceptance of the fault of moving away from Hinduism. But, then, rules about what one is allowed to say differ from one country to another, many a times leading to unpleasant situations (Charles Hebdo). In India this kind of flaming is not allowed.
I had my beautiful avatara. I do not know why it does not show today. I would try to get it back.
You have helped me to realize something about myself. For many many years I have held what I called an ironic sense of humor. I have thinking about this since you made this post. My ironic view is a manifestation of my ego. And my sense of irony is arrogance. Since I could not feel empathy with a Hindu I was very cruelly laughing at something which I now see is not funny at all. I was engaging in cultural racism and not realizing what I was doing. I need to think more on this but I do so very much hope you can survive here and stay.
Oh I seem to be doing fairly well here and at other atheist forums. Have been a member for six years now.
Quote from: Solitary on May 02, 2015, 11:27:37 PMSmOff I am Kalkin! Don't tell Krishna that I stole Radha from him on my white horse, and that I'm ready to start the golden age. :shhh: :syda: :flowers: Solitary
Radha cannot be stolen. She is part of Krishna, being his power (Shakti). Try stealing light from the sun. Kalki's wife will be Padma, and he will find her in SriLanka.