What are your thoughts on belief in spirituality being innate? Do you this there is a genetic predisposition to religiosity? I think there is something to this. As Michael Shermer states is the article below, "Of course, genes do not determine whether one chooses Judaism, Catholicism, Islam or any other religion. Rather, belief in supernatural agents (God, angels, demons) and commitment to certain religious practices (church attendance, prayer, rituals) appears to reflect genetically based cognitive processes (inferring the existence of invisible agents) and personality traits (respect for authority, traditionalism)."
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304198004575172233981688208
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/what-twins-reveal-about-god-gene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene
I tend to think so. My outdoors experiences are quite spiritual, seeing a grand vista or some majestic view that reveals how remarkable the world is. Religion is a fabricated attempt to capture that. A former friend, now deceased, also a Mormon when I was, was a black powder enthusiast and was an extra in some old west movies. He told me more than once his spirituality was stronger in the wilderness than in any church. I have always felt the same.
I seriously doubt this part:
Quote... Dr. Hamer has hypothesized that self-transcendence makes people more optimistic, which makes them healthier and likely to have more children.
P.Z. Myers and Carl Zimmer are skeptical as well:
QuoteAlthough it is always difficult to determine the many interacting functions of a gene, VMAT2 appears to be involved in the transport of monoamine neurotransmitters across the synapses of the brain. PZ Myers argues: "It's a pump. A teeny-tiny pump responsible for packaging a neurotransmitter for export during brain activity. Yes, it's important, and it may even be active and necessary during higher order processing, like religious thought. But one thing it isn't is a 'god gene.'"
Carl Zimmer claimed that VMAT2 can be characterized as a gene that accounts for less than one percent of the variance of self-transcendence scores. These, Zimmer says, can signify anything from belonging to the Green Party to believing in ESP. Zimmer also points out that the God Gene theory is based on only one unpublished, unreplicated study. However Hamer notes that the importance of the VMAT2 finding is not that it explains all spiritual or religious feelings, but rather that it points the way toward one neurobiological pathway that may be important.
That's the way I always thought when in nature, and wondered why one would have to go to a church, or Church, to talk to God or feel in awe. Isn't the world unbelievable enough to have to evoke a God to justify our feelings. I never needed a God to feel love, just another real human being, and if they were female, I was in heaven. :eek: :pidu: :syda: Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on April 23, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
That's the way I always thought when in nature, and wondered why one would have to go to a church, or Church, to talk to God or feel in awe. Isn't the world unbelievable enough to have to evoke a God to justify our feelings. I never needed a God to feel love, just another real human being, and if they were female, I was in heaven. :eek: :pidu: :syda: Solitary
I think it all stems from that sense people have as children to need their comforter blanket, because the world is so big and scary without something to make you feel protected. And when they grow up from children, when their mothers or father stop being their comforter, or they outgrow their blankets, they still need that comforter in the form of something they cannot explain, and don't want to, because it gives them that sense that there is still some daddy figure looking over them.
If all religions were just like that, and didn't do any other thing with that except believe it, I might not have an issue with it, but since these things create wars for those who insult their comforter, or spread hatred and discontent for what their imaginary sky daddy apparently said thousends of years ago, if they were just some silly people with a silly belief and do nothing else with it, I might not care otherwise. Infact thats kind of why I don't bring up other religions, because the lesser known ones don't have that arrogance or projective need for others to think like they do.
Is spirituality innate? Is filling gaps in knowledge with wild speculation innate? The two seem very similar to me. What people call spirituality is just a feeling of significance that has no significance. It's a substitute for actual knowledge, the acceptance of comforting thought. It's a product of our irrational nature.
I doubt that such things are innate, they are more like evolutionary artifacts that come with a higher functioning brain that can conceive abstract ideas, but still is not capable of filtering out the irrational. It's very strength has a built in weakness. It's like a vastly improved car engine, that's better than a Stanley Steamer, but still doesn't reach a high degree of optimal performance. Maybe someday evolution will create a brain that filters out nonsensical beliefs, but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: SGOS on April 23, 2015, 01:03:20 PM
Is spirituality innate? Is filling gaps in knowledge with wild speculation innate? The two seem very similar to me. What people call spirituality is just a feeling of significance that has no significance. It's a substitute for actual knowledge, the acceptance of comforting thought. It's a product of our irrational nature.
I doubt that such things are innate, they are more like evolutionary artifacts that come with a higher functioning brain that can conceive abstract ideas, but still is not capable of filtering out the irrational. It's very strength has a built in weakness. It's like a vastly improved car engine, that's better than a Stanley Steamer, but still doesn't reach a high degree of optimal performance. Maybe someday evolution will create a brain that filters out nonsensical beliefs, but I'm not holding my breath.
I must agree. I like that--just a feeling of significance that has no significance. Yep. I have done that--tried to attach significance to some act or something that has happened to me; a connection to some large concept or idea. But when I had awhile to think that feeling over, I realize, once again, that the universe is totally and completely neutral and has no feeling toward you or anything else. Appreciate the significance it has for me, and move on.
Quote from: Solitary on April 23, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
That's the way I always thought when in nature, and wondered why one would have to go to a church, or Church, to talk to God or feel in awe. Isn't the world unbelievable enough to have to evoke a God to justify our feelings. I never needed a God to feel love, just another real human being, and if they were female, I was in heaven. :eek: :pidu: :syda: Solitary
That reminds an old movie. Stigmata? Didn't they try something like that with that movie. If I remember correctly, the movie also had a claim that there was a Jesus gospel and it came to a conclusion that people didn't need churches...blah blah. There was a caricaturistic vatican villain who tried to kill the atheist girl possessed by a priest who died before finishing the translation of that gospel and came back to warn people by torturing the girl with stigmata wounds.
On the Mediterranean shores, there are many ruins and caves meeting the sea. And some of them are only accessible from sea. You can also swim to them. There was this little cave like sturcture and when I reached there I floated and watched the concave rock ceiling. The rock had an amazing pattern. It looked like it hugged everything in a stealth manner. It was the most beautiful and serene thing I have ever seen. Whenever somebody says 'spirituality', for some reason that scene appears in front of my eyes.
I also sometimes feel similar things with big great rock mountains, ocean, huge forests...etc. Not that strongly. Ancient ruins on shores. Probably I would feel something similar at a desert. Esp. at night. Imagine a night sky at a desert. Never been to one though. It's so peaceful.
Is that what you guys are talking about?
Quote from: Penny Dreadful on April 23, 2015, 01:44:25 PM
On the Mediterranean shores, there are many ruins and caves meeting the sea. And some of them are only accessible from sea. You can also swim to them. There was this little cave like sturcture and when I reached there I floated and watched the concave rock ceiling. The rock had an amazing pattern. It looked like it hugged everything in a stealth manner. It was the most beautiful and serene thing I have ever seen. Whenever somebody says 'spirituality', for some reason that scene appears in front of my eyes.
I also sometimes feel similar things with big great rock mountains, ocean, huge forests...etc. Not that strongly. Ancient ruins on shores. Probably I would feel something similar at a desert. Esp. at night. Imagine a night sky at a desert. Never been to one though. It's so peaceful.
Is that what you guys are talking about?
Yeah, I feel stuff like that. I call it awe, wonder, appreciation, marvel at it, and feel thankful that I can see and enjoy stuff like that. But do I call that spiritual? Not really. I don't really know what a spiritual feeling should be like, so I don't know if I've ever felt spiritual. I rather doubt it, since I don't believe in anything spiritual. Everything we see (and don't see) and interact with is natural. Nothing is supernatural--so how could there be spiritual? Doesn't that sort of fit with the supernatural stuff????
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 23, 2015, 02:07:53 PM
Yeah, I feel stuff like that. I call it awe, wonder, appreciation, marvel at it, and feel thankful that I can see and enjoy stuff like that. But do I call that spiritual? Not really. I don't really know what a spiritual feeling should be like, so I don't know if I've ever felt spiritual. I rather doubt it, since I don't believe in anything spiritual. Everything we see (and don't see) and interact with is natural. Nothing is supernatural--so how could there be spiritual? Doesn't that sort of fit with the supernatural stuff????
Exactly, what I feel.
Actually, I thought a lot about that experience I had. I love rocks, stones...they are alive to me. Ruins, all kinds of ruins. (I'm an art hsitorian ffs). I grew up with them, their paintings. I love archeology. And I love sea. Also floating in salty warm sea, pretty much gives the feeling what we feel as a fetus. It's so normal to feel that way. It was so good though. I should find somewhere like that again.
I think it's a number of variables, but they have yet to show a legitimate connection with a gene.
I think the fear of gods is rooted in weather, especially thunder.
I think the afterlife is derived form the dreamworld, and probably started as a way to shut up the wailing of someone grieving, possibly a child, who then grew up accepting it and passing it on like a meme.
I think a large part of morality comes from wearing clothes. Exposing our weakness, or nakedness, must be the simplest form of shame or guilt. Thus modesty has evolved, alongside a fear of nakedness. A whole set of obsessions about clothing, and the wearing and removing of it.
But all of it falls under the heading of fear. And all of it was long ago appropriated by those who would control others. Fear of the weather then leads to scapegoats, in an attempt to control the forces of nature. Fear of death leads to an afterlife promise of bliss for the good soldier. Fear of nakedness leads to sexual shame.
Even the positive side of the coin, the feeling that there is someone witnessing my inner life, besides myself, and all that derives from believing that, is a delusion I should never have been burdened with.
If you want to say that a tendency for irrational thinking is inherited, I might agree, but not specifically spirituality. And I find the idea that a sense of awe is what attracts people to religion, to be highly unlikely, the majority of the time.
All that being said, I often find myself in awe of nature, and ponder the thought that every living thing around me shares a universal common ancestor. That they, like me, are the end result (so far) of an evolutionary lineage that traces back billions of years. That gives me a feeling of connection, and an appreciation of the precious and fleeting nature of human life.
Yeah. This is something the religious spiritualists think only they can feel because of their belief in God or a god. Many honestly think you can't find a sense of peace or awe without some 'divine scripture' to tell it.
And yet I often find awe when looking up at the night sky at the stars, thinking just how vast the universe is, wondering how far it really is, if anything exists beyond what we know of the cosmos. I get a sense of euphoria when feeling the sea wind blowing over me when walking along a cliff, or seeing a work or art or architecture.
You quiet simply do not need a God to have the sense of awe and wonder, there are things beyond our reach, and we can find that sense of curiosity and want to understand without some made up voodoo trying to fill the gaps for us. Now if some want to call that spirituality, that's fine, but it's the same sense of awe and wonder our ancient ancestors felt when discovering fire.
Pretty much what you guys stated, I think.
If you don't have any spirituality, you are not a 'moral' person. :naughty:
Quote from: Munch on April 23, 2015, 02:52:08 PM
Yeah. This is something the religious spiritualists think only they can feel because of their belief in God or a god. Many honestly think you can't find a sense of peace or awe without some 'divine scripture' to tell it.
And yet I often find awe when looking up at the night sky at the stars...
I had a spiritual experience in my teens when I thought I felt the presence of God, and it was indeed a powerful and moving experience. However, in a matter of weeks, it was obvious to me that what I had was a strong emotional response, which without actual evidence beyond an exceptionally good feeling, was not very conclusive. A few years later, I began having similar emotional experiences over things unrelated to God, and which I could fully account for in precise ways, and some of them were far more intense than my previous "spiritual experience".
I have to wonder if born again Christians have had these types of experiences, or do they only have them when they are kissing a creator's ass. If they only have them when they are thinking about God, I could see why they could be powerful motivators for belief. But having had them in many different contexts, no matter how powerful they are, they begin to lose their appeal as evidence for the supernatural. They become obvious emotional responses, but of an intense nature.
Quote from: SGOS on April 23, 2015, 04:54:08 PM
I have to wonder if born again Christians have had these types of experiences...
When I was a teen/young-adult Christian, I used to actively seek transcendental experiences. Now that I've had a shitload of them, I've been diagnosed as schizophrenic. Ironic, I think.
I think its all a little simpler than that. As children we (most of us) have our parents to care and comfort us. Once we get older and independent the very same stuff scares us almost as much but now we have no one to comfort us…so we make up one. Not so obviously as that would render the benefits useless if you realize you were being so childish. But we create our "comforter" under this guise of "spirituality", we give a divine near providence to "things", we create our parents in absenteeism via a spirit to watch over us. The idea that we are born with "spirituality" is nothing more than wanting a hug from your mom and dad once in awhile.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on April 23, 2015, 05:10:12 PM
When I was a teen/young-adult Christian, I used to actively seek transcendental experiences. Now that I've had a shitload of them, I've been diagnosed as schizophrenic. Ironic, I think.
Well, that's a bummer.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on April 23, 2015, 05:10:12 PM
When I was a teen/young-adult Christian, I used to actively seek transcendental experiences. Now that I've had a shitload of them, I've been diagnosed as schizophrenic. Ironic, I think.
One of the interesting things that Carrier brought out in his book On The Historicity of Jesus, that in the days of Jesus' time, schizophrenic and those who heard voices were venerated as the mouth piece of God. So, my friend, you are our pipeline to god! :)))
Quote from: Munch on April 23, 2015, 02:52:08 PM
Yeah. This is something the religious spiritualists think only they can feel because of their belief in God or a god. Many honestly think you can't find a sense of peace or awe without some 'divine scripture' to tell it.
And yet I often find awe when looking up at the night sky at the stars, thinking just how vast the universe is, wondering how far it really is, if anything exists beyond what we know of the cosmos. I get a sense of euphoria when feeling the sea wind blowing over me when walking along a cliff, or seeing a work or art or architecture.
You quiet simply do not need a God to have the sense of awe and wonder, there are things beyond our reach, and we can find that sense of curiosity and want to understand without some made up voodoo trying to fill the gaps for us. Now if some want to call that spirituality, that's fine, but it's the same sense of awe and wonder our ancient ancestors felt when discovering fire.
I would venture to think that the religious cannot come close to the awe that we feel. Evangelicals for example largely have no idea what we can see.
Quote from: SGOS on April 23, 2015, 05:37:22 PM
Well, that's a bummer.
If I get off my meds, I can have some really "spiritual" experiences. Part of it involves hiding from a predator, that can read my thoughts. It can be both terrifying and exhilarating at the same time. But it's not bad when I'm on the drugs. The memory of it, though, keeps me pondering some "spiritual" stuff. Not a bummer though. I never get depressed.
Quote from: Mike Cl on April 23, 2015, 05:47:49 PM
One of the interesting things that Carrier brought out in his book On The Historicity of Jesus, that in the days of Jesus' time, schizophrenic and those who heard voices were venerated as the mouth piece of God. So, my friend, you are our pipeline to god! :)))
If I had a message, it would be this: there is some kind of communication going on between humans, that is beyond the normal range of our senses. But how it works, or how it matters, I haven't a clue. So I'm a poor excuse for a prophet.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on April 23, 2015, 06:02:05 PM
If I get off my meds, I can have some really "spiritual" experiences. Part of it involves hiding from a predator, that can read my thoughts. It can be both terrifying and exhilarating at the same time. But it's not bad when I'm on the drugs. The memory of it, though, keeps me pondering some "spiritual" stuff. Not a bummer though. I never get depressed.
I had a friend that was diagnosed schizophrenic in his 20s. Before that he seemed completely normal. For whatever reason, he wouldn't take his meds, even though he was ordered to by the court. He ended up in jail, for not taking his meds (and probably something else). I kind of lost touch with him, although I did see him now and then in his 20s after he was released from prison. He seemed fine again. I assume he was back on his meds. I heard he could be dangerous, something I never got a hint of before. It sounds like you're much better off than he was.
Quote from: SGOS
I had a friend that was diagnosed schizophrenic in his 20s...I heard he could be dangerous, something I never got a hint of before. .
Schizophrenics are far more often a danger to themselves than others.
Quote from: SGOSIt sounds like you're much better off than he was.
Chalk it up to self interest. I finally found a chemical that works pretty well without bizarre side effects. It's
Abilify, believe it or not. They don't advertise the anti-psychotic use on TV. I recommend it to all prophets who see angels, or anyone who hears the other side, and even those poor persecuted souls who have chips implanted. :lol:
But I've suddenly become conscious that I may be sidetracking the thread. My apologies for that. I kind of went on a tangent.
To bring it full circle, let me say I have had some transcendent experiences which, I guess, you could characterize as "spiritual," but I prefer the mundane. Nothing beats a relatively level affect. I don't get really up or down. I am even tempered, and generally content without getting overrun with sentiment. A sad story can still make me cry, and a creative one can make me feel inspired, but what really makes me feel
awe is this: http://www.htwins.net/scale2/
Music. It's capable of transcendence, or "spirituality." I find, most often it's music, including singing, that moves me to awe. Combine an inspired melody with lyrics of some profundity, and it can engage the higher thought processes, while at the same time elevating the emotions.
Consider music's influence on believers, singing in their worship services. It's a unifying experience, that can easily feel spiritual.
An affinity for music might be considered innate.
That's my 7am thoughts about it.
It was obvious to me that music at church added to the mystical experience, at least for others. I remember sitting there analyzing how the various rituals, songs, prayers, architecture, and other experiences added to a feeling of spirituality. Although analyzing tended to negate the experience for me (which was never that intense in my case), but it was something to occupy my mind during the guaranteed intensely boring service. So my mind would wander here and wander there, and I would keep pulling myself back and try to listen during the sermon, but each time I did, my mind would wander again, with me never even realizing it until I caught myself deep in reverie. Then I would ask myself, "How did I get here, especially when I was trying so hard to concentrate on not letting this very thing happen?" And this is how I would spend an hour each week, because my parents made me go. And then one day they announced to me they wouldn't make me go to church anymore, unless I wanted to. They must have talked it over, perhaps they even involved the minister. I was surprised.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on April 23, 2015, 05:10:12 PM
When I was a teen/young-adult Christian, I used to actively seek transcendental experiences. Now that I've had a shitload of them, I've been diagnosed as schizophrenic. Ironic, I think.
:rotflmao: OMG this is the funniest thing Ive read in a week!! :lol:
Jeez,, I hope you're not serious. :embarrassed: Its still funny, tho.
Wind chimes..soooo speeritual!
Quote from: SkyChief on May 18, 2015, 12:54:13 AM
:rotflmao: OMG this is the funniest thing Ive read in a week!! :lol:
Jeez,, I hope you're not serious. :embarrassed: Its still funny, tho.
It
is funny! Irony is probably your most basic humor.
Yeah, it's true though. Schizophrenia is the only explanation that most people will accept. I'm not entirely convinced. Nowadays it's almost mundane to me. It's pretty much just the very quiet voices now, whereas they used to be loud enough tho keep me awake at night. Sleep is the key. It's easy to get delusional about such "hallucinations" when I haven't eaten or slept for two weeks. I still don't know exactly what the fuck they are, but with medication, I get by well enough to think and write
more lucidly, than any Christian we've had on here so-far! :biggrin2:
I think curiosity is innate. When we're little, we can believe in God as easily as we believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy or the Easter bunny. After a while, normally developing children will realize that the idea of a fat man in a sleigh, money for teeth, and a candy-hiding rabbit seem very far fetched and don't jive with reality as we understand it.
The God question though is harder, since it speaks to the core of what reality is, why it is, where it came from, and where it's going.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 23, 2015, 11:29:58 AM
What are your thoughts on belief in spirituality being innate?
Spirituality is just another name for emotion and emotion is indeed innate for human beings.
What William James called "melting moods" and Abraham Maslow called "peak experiences" could fit into a definition of spiritual. Nothing supernatural necessary and in all cultures people feel an uplifting emotion when encountering altruistic deeds, wonders of nature and so forth. We seem wired for such experiences.
Quote from: PJS on May 18, 2015, 03:35:57 PM
What William James called "melting moods" and Abraham Maslow called "peak experiences" could fit into a definition of spiritual. Nothing supernatural necessary and in all cultures people feel an uplifting emotion when encountering altruistic deeds, wonders of nature and so forth. We seem wired for such experiences.
This explains the experience of divine revelation to me, where people claim to "feel the presence of God" so to speak. I can understand why it would seem so convincing for some people.
Quote from: the_antithesis on May 18, 2015, 08:22:54 AM
Spirituality is just another name for emotion and emotion is indeed innate for human beings.
Jealousy is an emotion. But is it spiritual?
Anger is an emotion, Is that spiritual?
Guilt is an emotion. Can it be spiritual?
I think that's too broad a definition of spirituality.
Here's a better one:
The praxis and process of personal transformation, either in accordance with traditional religious ideals, or, increasingly, oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth independently of any specific religious context.
I agree that emotion is innate for human beings. I just cant make any connection between spirituality and emotion. My wife is very emotional (at times), but she is
never spiritual. I would not have married her if she were.
Quote from: Solomon Zorn on April 24, 2015, 08:08:25 AM
Music. It's capable of transcendence, or "spirituality." I find, most often it's music, including singing, that moves me to awe. Combine an inspired melody with lyrics of some profundity, and it can engage the higher thought processes, while at the same time elevating the emotions.
This.
If you want to see me break into tears because I'm overwhelmed with joy, awe, wonder, there are a couple particular performances of certain Bach pieces that are so completely perfect that I reduce to putty, and even a 'typical' performance will send a thrill up my spine.
Is it spiritual? No, I don't think so. I think it has more to do with the way my brain is wired and what fits it and what doesn't. If it were spiritual -- that is, something from outside the physical body -- then we'd all be affected the same way by the same pieces.
For something to be spiritual, I would think it has to be identified as such. For those who have benefited from going through some type of counseling, it would be no surprise that identifying emotions is a tricky business. Intense emotions, the good ones anyway, might be perceived as spiritual, especially if one wants to have a spiritual experience, whatever that person expects a spiritual experience to be. It doesn't make any difference what the root cause of a particular emotion is.
There is nothing in science that accounts for something spiritual (as in some way related to the spirit world or the world of woo). I'm talking about spiritual as related to the supernatural. Spirituality has become just a word coined to fit a need or to tag some unknown experience. Science would have to acknowledge that the definition of "spiritual" has a wide latitude for interpretation and describes so many things, it's supernatural meaning gets watered down. Science would acknowledge claims for spirituality, but also understands that such claims amount to nothing more than personal testimony, and which are so highly suspect that such claims do not qualify as scientific evidence.
So if you have a spiritual experience listening to Bach, or feeling the presence of a higher power, good for you. We usually know what you are talking about. You are putting a tag on something that moves you. We all have experiences that move us but beyond that, it doesn't mean a whole Hell of a lot, no matter what meaningless word you attach to it or what claims you make for it's cause. But we understand that you're having a good time.
I got money for teeth which is exactly a million times more than I ever got from god..
Well maybe not a million times more..I think I got a dime last time..
Children are taught there are Easter bunnies too, is that innate? Spiritual is defined as relating to spirit or sacred matter and being deeply religious. Spirit is defined as the life giving force, presence of God, Ghost, mood, vivacity or enthusiasm. How are these innate accept for mood an having enthusiasm? It's just another word give meaning to the unknown or ignorance. Actually, the tooth fairy can explain all that better without a God. :wall: :biggrin2: Solitary
Quote from: Solitary on May 18, 2015, 10:56:16 PM
Children are taught there are Easter bunnies too, is that innate?
Excellent point. Beliefs in both silly woo and really silly woo are learned. Having said that, we could probably make a case for humans having an innate interest in fantasy. Everyone loves a magician, a few who are openly unspiritual, by the way, but it's universally fun for everyone to be coaxed along by the fantasy they create. However, this doesn't help the argument for spiritual innateness much. The argument is a tired old argument presented by theists who are trying to convince us that everyone knows there's a sky daddy up there. Even if we lie about it to ourselves.
Spirituality--a word used almost daily. But the definitions are infinite. What does that word mean to you? To me, it means deep appreciation. Throw in a little wonder and sprinkle in some awe, and there you have it. I was reminded of my spirituality while watching one of my favorite cosmologists (even more so than Sagan--but I don't remember his name for some silly old reason--old being the key--) explaining how the elements that make up the universe are the same that make up a human body (minus the inert helium). All stars are made of the same stuff and when they explode, they spread their stuff far and wide. When enough of that stuff comes together, another star is formed. We are make of that stuff. That is awesome! Many nights I've been outside, away from the lights of cities and just gazed at the stars. At times, I get the spiritual feeling I described. It has nothing to do with god, the gods, or Jesus or anything divine. It is the deep appreciation of our universe and that I am a part of it--I am literally one with it. That is spiritual. So, in a sense, it is an emotion in that it is not something concrete that can be looked at or examined while in hand. It is a feeling and I think therefore, tied to emotions more than reasoning. And it is deeply personal. Which is why it is so difficult to accurately describe.
I wonder if anyone's ever done a study of the spirituality of feral children? I seem to recall hearing of something of the sort several years ago. If spirituality is a completely learned behavior, then ferals may very well show no signs of it.
I don't think I would ever use the word spirituality as it sounds too religious for me. If I were to express such it would be more like awe or wonder perhaps the profound. Since I have no spirit I can not experience spirituality.
Quote from: Unbeliever on May 19, 2015, 06:31:04 PM
I wonder if anyone's ever done a study of the spirituality of feral children? I seem to recall hearing of something of the sort several years ago. If spirituality is a completely learned behavior, then ferals may very well show no signs of it.
That is a difficult question. My suspicion is they would not be advanced enough to question their own existence. I think god can only be created when the mind advances enough to need an explanation of its own existence.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 19, 2015, 10:05:17 PM
I don't think I would ever use the word spirituality as it sounds too religious for me. If I were to express such it would be more like awe or wonder perhaps the profound. Since I have no spirit I can not experience spirituality.
I understand your reluctance but I think most people are spiritual to at least some degree. Carl Sagan said, “Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passages of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtly of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual.†I like atheist Richard Carrier’s description of spirituality as "a self-examined life of the mind, caring deeply about personal beliefs and ideals, focusing more about human happiness than material things, and experiencing awe, inner peace and enlightenment when fathoming human minds and the natural world." I would say philosophy examines the mind, beliefs, ideals and human happiness and spirituality adds the emotional components of awe, inner peace and enlightenment.
I am interested learning more about the psychology and neurologic basis of spiritual experiences. Feelings of transcendence, euphoria or universal love associated with spiritual experiences can be induced by taking specific drugs, experiencing steady rhythmic tones or even engaging repetitive movement. Certain religious practices these methods specifically to induce spiritual experiences. Also, people who have psychotic manic episodes often believe they suddenly understand how the universe works, that they are Jesus Christ, that number or symbols have special significance or they have special knowledge of demons or secret conspiracies. The fact that these sensations or perceptions can be chemically induced or the result of neurologic imbalances and that they are cross cultural seems to indicate sensations associated with spiritual experiences are an inherent part of our neurology. The human brain looks for patterns and tries to make sense of both internal and external stimuli. These sensation are given context through our personal experiences, e.g. Christians don't see Valkyries when they have near death experiences. I suspect individuals raised with a religious upbringing may tend to interpret sensations associated with spiritual experience in a religious context, reinforcing these religious beliefs, while non-believers interpret these sensations in a different context. I also suspect that continued association of these physical sensations and perceptions with religion keeps some people from abandoning religion because they don't see spirituality in any other context, spirituality and their religion being synonymous for them.
That spiritual experiences are created by our brains doesn’t minimize the significance of the experience; an orgasm with someone you love doesn’t become less pleasurable or meaningful after the physiology behind it is understood. Some atheists discount spirituality as something associated with religion or woo-woo, and using some definitions of spirituality that may be true, but I think reflecting on our place in the universe, our ideals, thoughts, perceptions and associated physical sensations are of value to anyone.
Spirituality is NOT innate.
I can prove it.
Well, not actually prove it, but i can easily demonstrate that it is not likely.
Hypothetical:
An alien planet is terra-formed to provide a suitable habitat for humans. It has water, oxygen, organic vegetation; all the essentials.
A spacecraft from Earth is loaded to the gunnels with non-believers and are sent to colonize the New World.
All of man's scientific knowledge is stored in the ship's database for reference by the colonists. However, there are no religious texts or mention of spirits, ghosts, gods or supernatural entities of any kind. Not even a hint of one.
The Colonists can no longer communicate in any way with Earth.
Eventually, the Colonists begin to have babies. They (newborn) are still human, but they are not 'Earthlings'.
Its rational to expect that this new generation of humans could not be spiritual if they had no references or history of supernatural gods. They would have no need for it. Because they would know where they came from.
Thats not to say that they would not gaze up at the nite sky with amazement and awe, But that's not spirituality.
Quote from: SkyChief on May 20, 2015, 07:22:34 PM
Its rational to expect that this new generation of humans could not be spiritual if they had no references or history of supernatural gods. They would have no need for it. Because they would know where they came from.
Thats not to say that they would not gaze up at the nite sky with amazement and awe, But that's not spirituality.
We have different definitions of spirituality. I don't believe there is anything supernatural about spirituality (I actually don't believe there is
anything supernatural). That you say these humans would look upon the universe with amazement and awe indicates you believe spirituality, as Carrier, Sagan and I define it, is innate and not a learned behavior.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 20, 2015, 06:24:34 PM
I understand your reluctance but I think most people are spiritual to at least some degree. Carl Sagan said, “Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passages of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtly of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual.†I like atheist Richard Carrier’s description of spirituality as "a self-examined life of the mind, caring deeply about personal beliefs and ideals, focusing more about human happiness than material things, and experiencing awe, inner peace and enlightenment when fathoming human minds and the natural world." I would say philosophy examines the mind, beliefs, ideals and human happiness and spirituality adds the emotional components of awe, inner peace and enlightenment.
I am interested learning more about the psychology and neurologic basis of spiritual experiences. Feelings of transcendence, euphoria or universal love associated with spiritual experiences can be induced by taking specific drugs, experiencing steady rhythmic tones or even engaging repetitive movement. Certain religious practices these methods specifically to induce spiritual experiences. Also, people who have psychotic manic episodes often believe they suddenly understand how the universe works, that they are Jesus Christ, that number or symbols have special significance or they have special knowledge of demons or secret conspiracies. The fact that these sensations or perceptions can be chemically induced or the result of neurologic imbalances and that they are cross cultural seems to indicate sensations associated with spiritual experiences are an inherent part of our neurology. The human brain looks for patterns and tries to make sense of both internal and external stimuli. These sensation are given context through our personal experiences, e.g. Christians don't see Valkyries when they have near death experiences. I suspect individuals raised with a religious upbringing may tend to interpret sensations associated with spiritual experience in a religious context, reinforcing these religious beliefs, while non-believers interpret these sensations in a different context. I also suspect that continued association of these physical sensations and perceptions with religion keeps some people from abandoning religion because they don't see spirituality in any other context, spirituality and their religion being synonymous for them.
That spiritual experiences are created by our brains doesn’t minimize the significance of the experience; an orgasm with someone you love doesn’t become less pleasurable or meaningful after the physiology behind it is understood. Some atheists discount spirituality as something associated with religion or woo-woo, and using some definitions of spirituality that may be true, but I think reflecting on our place in the universe, our ideals, thoughts, perceptions and associated physical sensations are of value to anyone.
Based on your response, I am just going to have to forgive myself for using the word. I see myself on a "spiritual" path in a quest of realization and understanding. I encounter life generally with low expectations often just seeing what happens. I feel in unity with all that is and I sense a purpose to existence. I am very metaphysically in awe that our universe is structured in a manner that allows for our existence. And I see randomness not as an indication of no purpose but rather as sort of a law by which the universe must function. And I see myself in similar manner in how my thoughts might randomly occur. So I look for ways to stimulate my thoughts such that creativity might occur. I exist within myself taking in all that exists around me. So I guess that might be considered spiritual. How do you see yourself existing?
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 20, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
We have different definitions of spirituality. I don't believe there is anything supernatural about spirituality (I actually don't believe there is anything supernatural). That you say these humans would look upon the universe with amazement and awe indicates you believe spirituality, as Carrier, Sagan and I define it, is innate and not a learned behavior.
I think that most on this board have feelings that are usually called 'spiritual'--it is semantics. I just don't like 'spiritual' because the religions of the world have ruined it for me. So, I like to think of that innate feeling as being born of curiosity. Curiosity makes me want to look at a subject, and then look some more. At times what I find or the realizations I come to produce that feeling. I agree with you, Carrier and Sagan--I just dislike that word.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 20, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
We have different definitions of spirituality. I don't believe there is anything supernatural about spirituality (I actually don't believe there is anything supernatural).
Okay,.. Clearly, there is some controversy about the definition of spirituality.
So, what is the
actual definition of spirituality?
When i google spirituality, here's what came up:
"Spirituality is the praxis and process of personal transformation, either
in accordance with traditional religious ideals, or, increasingly, oriented on
subjective experience and psychological growth independently of any specific religious context."
With this definition, spirituality would not seem to be necessarily innate. (imo!)
Can atheists be spiritual?
The problem with answering whether atheists are spiritual or not is that
the term "spiritual" is so vague and ill-defined most of the time. Usually when people use it they mean something similar to, but nevertheless very distinct from, religion. This is probably an improper usage because there are very good reasons to think that spirituality is more a type of religion than anything else.
Spirituality seems to be one of those words which has as many definitions as it does people trying to define it. Often it is used in conjunction with theism because people's spirituality is "God-centered." In such cases, it is unlikely that you could find an atheist who is "spiritual" because there is a real contradiction between living a "God-centered" life while not believing in the existence of any gods.
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/Spirituality.htm (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/Spirituality.htm)
Quote from: SkyChief on May 20, 2015, 11:47:32 PM
Okay,.. Clearly, there is some controversy about the definition of spirituality.
So, what is the actual definition of spirituality?
When i google spirituality, here's what came up:
"Spirituality is the praxis and process of personal transformation, either in accordance with traditional religious ideals, or, increasingly, oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth independently of any specific religious context."
With this definition, spirituality would not seem to be necessarily innate. (imo!)
Can atheists be spiritual?
The problem with answering whether atheists are spiritual or not is that the term "spiritual" is so vague and ill-defined most of the time. Usually when people use it they mean something similar to, but nevertheless very distinct from, religion. This is probably an improper usage because there are very good reasons to think that spirituality is more a type of religion than anything else.
Spirituality seems to be one of those words which has as many definitions as it does people trying to define it. Often it is used in conjunction with theism because people's spirituality is "God-centered." In such cases, it is unlikely that you could find an atheist who is "spiritual" because there is a real contradiction between living a "God-centered" life while not believing in the existence of any gods.
http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/Spirituality.htm (http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/Spirituality.htm)
New agers like to talk about spiritual things too. I think that's a bunch of crap also but at least they don't proselytize.
Quote from: Givemeareason on May 22, 2015, 10:12:54 PM
New agers like to talk about spiritual things too. I think that's a bunch of crap also but at least they don't proselytize.
Fair enough. So where, exactly, do you think the proselytizing occurs?
Spirituality is one of those words that means different things to different people. And basically that's not the way words should work....
Gerard
welcome back Gerard.
We can watch the progression of a child cognizance as they age and how they easily become animistic without any help from us. My Granddaughter has a pet rock that she talks to and carries with her, she calls it her "friend". They easily see in things human traits and I suspect long before gods were a staple of thought that older humans kept some of that animistic thought, only it became "spiritual" as they would grow older, perhaps a pleasant or good experience happened to them under a certain tree and they associate that tree with their fortune. This is not a difficult concept to believe.
Quote from: SkyChief on May 23, 2015, 03:03:53 AM
Fair enough. So where, exactly, do you think the proselytizing occurs?
When we start telling others how they should conform like I have been doing here and others have been doing back to me. :-)
Quote from: SkyChief on May 18, 2015, 07:18:01 PM
I think that's too broad a definition of spirituality.
I disagree.
What some call "spirituality" is just a feeling that feels like more than a feeling. How do they know it's more than a feeling? Because they can
feel it.
It is all based up emotion. Emotion and arrogance, I suppose. "If I feel this so strongly, it
must mean something."
It is just feelings. Nothing more.
Quote from: SkyChief on May 23, 2015, 03:03:53 AM
Fair enough. So where, exactly, do you think the proselytizing occurs?
Imagine this. Some stupid old fool stumbles in here and starts making lots of noise and then starts jumping and down with joy. And then we start wondering what the hell is the matter with this guy. But rather than simply asking we start trying to figure it out for ourselves. So we then decide he is not behaving correctly so we then start trying to correct him. But the stupid old coot won't listen so then we get annoyed. And then the nerve of that old coot, he turns around and starts telling us how we should behave. So now we really start getting pissed off so we decide we need to get rid of him. He is proselytizing and he is making us look bad. He is disrupting everything. So you see where I am going with this...
So why dont we just rain on his parade. Why is he so damned happy anyway? I don't see where he has disrupted anything yet but some say his posts aren't meaningful. So what. Maybe they weren't intended for me. However I have noticed his threads have gained a lot of attention. I guess I could just ignore him. But he just won't stop. He is distracting and I just wish he would go away and let some other person post something more meaningful. In the meantime, I think I will sit back and have another beer.
Quote from: aitm on May 23, 2015, 07:57:04 AM
welcome back Gerard.
We can watch the progression of a child cognizance as they age and how they easily become animistic without any help from us. My Granddaughter has a pet rock that she talks to and carries with her, she calls it her "friend". They easily see in things human traits and I suspect long before gods were a staple of thought that older humans kept some of that animistic thought, only it became "spiritual" as they would grow older, perhaps a pleasant or good experience happened to them under a certain tree and they associate that tree with their fortune. This is not a difficult concept to believe.
Animism is a good example of a psychological process that makes me think there is an innate component to spiritual thinking and that religions have emerged from and intentionally used these processes to maintain themselves.
I clearly need to come up with a term other than "spiritual" if I decide to further discuss this topic.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on May 23, 2015, 03:48:19 PM
Animism is a good example of a psychological process that makes me think there is an innate component to spiritual thinking and that religions have emerged from and intentionally used these processes to maintain themselves.
I clearly need to come up with a term other than "spiritual" if I decide to further discuss this topic.
Long before many of us understood what exactly a god thingy was, we had a favorite toy or stuffed animal that we prescribed human qualities to. We thought them very much as one of us only more special because they were OUR special friend,,after all, we knew we invented them for us, but we were still calmed by their presence when upset. It could simply be the replacement of the parent as they attempt to get further away from us as we age. By further away from us, just simply them getting some alone time and wanting us to start playing with ourselves in our own room and leave them the fuck alone. So we invent this new type of parent.
Christianity in particular is explicitly a glorified paternal relationship taken to extreme.
Quote from: GSOgymrat on April 23, 2015, 11:29:58 AMWhat are your thoughts on belief in spirituality being innate?
Micheal Shermer has accurately pointed out that we have a propensity to do Type 2 Errors (false negative) in cognition, simply due to evolution, of attributing agency to natural events.
If you mistakenly think a rustles in the bushes is a predator and not just the wind, you've made a false negative in judgement and nothing interesting happens, other than attributing agency to the wind.
However, if we
didn't have this propensity to attribute agency to events, we would be dinner the next time there was a rustle in the bushes and it turned out to be a predator - so the idiom, "better safe than sorry" is accurate here.
Quote from: Sal1981 on May 23, 2015, 04:07:21 PM
Micheal Shermer has accurately pointed out that we have a propensity to do Type 2 Errors (false negative) in cognition, simply due to evolution, of attributing agency to natural events.
If you mistakenly think a rustles in the bushes is a predator and not just the wind, you've made a false negative in judgement and nothing interesting happens, other than attributing agency to the wind.
However, if we didn't have this propensity to attribute agency to events, we would be dinner the next time there was a rustle in the bushes and it turned out to be a predator - so the idiom, "better safe than sorry" is accurate here.
absolutely and imagine how easy it is for the shaman to arise, even by mistake or misadventure, suppose that rustle in the leaves is a predator and a man challenges it in front of others and for reason not related to the mans actions the predator hurries away. Every action the man took will be seen as the method for chasing away the animal and if that fails it will be noted that only "tong" could chase away the animal and now he has power. Simply seeing this from the mind of a simple child makes the evolution of religion very obvious.