Is spirituailty innate?

[GSOgymrat]

What are your thoughts on belief in spirituality being innate? Do you this there is a genetic predisposition to religiosity? I think there is something to this. As Michael Shermer states is the article below, "Of course, genes do not determine whether one chooses Judaism, Catholicism, Islam or any other religion. Rather, belief in supernatural agents (God, angels, demons) and commitment to certain religious practices (church attendance, prayer, rituals) appears to reflect genetically based cognitive processes (inferring the existence of invisible agents) and personality traits (respect for authority, traditionalism)."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304198004575172233981688208

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/what-twins-reveal-about-god-gene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene

[stromboli]

I tend to think so. My outdoors experiences are quite spiritual, seeing a grand vista or some majestic view that reveals how remarkable the world is. Religion is a fabricated attempt to capture that. A former friend, now deceased, also a Mormon when I was, was a black powder enthusiast and was an extra in some old west movies. He told me more than once his spirituality was stronger in the wilderness than in any church. I have always felt the same.

[Solomon Zorn]

I seriously doubt this part:

... Dr. Hamer has hypothesized that self-transcendence makes people more optimistic, which makes them healthier and likely to have more children.

P.Z. Myers and Carl Zimmer are skeptical as well:

Although it is always difficult to determine the many interacting functions of a gene, VMAT2 appears to be involved in the transport of monoamine neurotransmitters across the synapses of the brain. PZ Myers argues: "It's a pump. A teeny-tiny pump responsible for packaging a neurotransmitter for export during brain activity. Yes, it's important, and it may even be active and necessary during higher order processing, like religious thought. But one thing it isn't is a 'god gene.'"
Carl Zimmer claimed that VMAT2 can be characterized as a gene that accounts for less than one percent of the variance of self-transcendence scores. These, Zimmer says, can signify anything from belonging to the Green Party to believing in ESP. Zimmer also points out that the God Gene theory is based on only one unpublished, unreplicated study. However Hamer notes that the importance of the VMAT2 finding is not that it explains all spiritual or religious feelings, but rather that it points the way toward one neurobiological pathway that may be important.

[Solitary]

That's the way I always thought when in nature, and wondered why one would have to go to a church, or Church, to talk to God or feel in awe. Isn't the world unbelievable enough to have to evoke a God to justify our feelings. I  never needed a God to feel love, just another real human being, and if they were female, I was in heaven.    Solitary 

[Munch]

That's the way I always thought when in nature, and wondered why one would have to go to a church, or Church, to talk to God or feel in awe. Isn't the world unbelievable enough to have to evoke a God to justify our feelings. I  never needed a God to feel love, just another real human being, and if they were female, I was in heaven.    Solitary

I think it all stems from that sense people have as children to need their comforter blanket, because the world is so big and scary without something to make you feel protected. And when they grow up from children, when their mothers or father stop being their comforter, or they outgrow their blankets, they still need that comforter in the form of something they cannot explain, and don't want to, because it gives them that sense that there is still some daddy figure looking over them.

If all religions were just like that, and didn't do any other thing with that except believe it, I might not have an issue with it, but since these things create wars for those who insult their comforter, or spread hatred and discontent for what their imaginary sky daddy apparently said thousends of years ago, if they were just some silly people with a silly belief and do nothing else with it, I might not care otherwise. Infact thats kind of why I don't bring up other religions, because the lesser known ones don't have that arrogance or projective need for others to think like they do.

[SGOS]

Is spirituality innate?  Is filling gaps in knowledge with wild speculation innate?  The two seem very similar to me.  What people call spirituality is just a feeling of significance that has no significance.  It's a substitute for actual knowledge, the acceptance of comforting thought.  It's a product of our irrational nature. 

I doubt that such things are innate, they are more like evolutionary artifacts that come with a higher functioning brain that can conceive abstract ideas, but still is not capable of filtering out the irrational.  It's very strength has a built in weakness.  It's like a vastly improved car engine, that's better than a Stanley Steamer, but still doesn't reach a high degree of optimal performance.  Maybe someday evolution will create a brain that filters out nonsensical beliefs, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Mike Cl]

Is spirituality innate?  Is filling gaps in knowledge with wild speculation innate?  The two seem very similar to me.  What people call spirituality is just a feeling of significance that has no significance.  It's a substitute for actual knowledge, the acceptance of comforting thought.  It's a product of our irrational nature. 

I doubt that such things are innate, they are more like evolutionary artifacts that come with a higher functioning brain that can conceive abstract ideas, but still is not capable of filtering out the irrational.  It's very strength has a built in weakness.  It's like a vastly improved car engine, that's better than a Stanley Steamer, but still doesn't reach a high degree of optimal performance.  Maybe someday evolution will create a brain that filters out nonsensical beliefs, but I'm not holding my breath.

I must agree.  I like that--just a feeling of significance that has no significance.  Yep.  I have done that--tried to attach significance to some act or something that has happened to me; a connection to some large concept or idea.  But when I had awhile to think that feeling over, I realize, once again, that the universe is totally and completely neutral and has no feeling toward you or anything else.  Appreciate the significance it has for me, and move on. 

[drunkenshoe]

That's the way I always thought when in nature, and wondered why one would have to go to a church, or Church, to talk to God or feel in awe. Isn't the world unbelievable enough to have to evoke a God to justify our feelings. I  never needed a God to feel love, just another real human being, and if they were female, I was in heaven.    Solitary

That reminds an old movie. Stigmata? Didn't they try something like that with that movie. If I remember correctly, the movie also had a claim that there was a Jesus gospel and it came to a conclusion that people didn't need churches...blah blah. There was a caricaturistic vatican villain who tried to kill the atheist girl possessed by a priest who died before finishing the translation of that gospel and came back to warn people by torturing the girl with stigmata wounds.

[drunkenshoe]

On the Mediterranean shores, there are many ruins and caves meeting the sea. And some of them are only accessible from sea. You can also swim to them. There was this little cave like sturcture and when I reached there I floated and watched the concave rock ceiling. The rock had an amazing pattern. It looked like it hugged everything in a stealth manner. It was the most beautiful and serene thing I have ever seen. Whenever somebody says 'spirituality', for some reason that scene appears in front of my eyes.

I also sometimes feel similar things with big great rock mountains, ocean, huge forests...etc. Not that strongly. Ancient ruins on shores. Probably I would feel something similar at a desert. Esp. at night. Imagine a night sky at a desert. Never been to one though. It's so peaceful.

Is that what you guys are talking about?

[Mike Cl]

On the Mediterranean shores, there are many ruins and caves meeting the sea. And some of them are only accessible from sea. You can also swim to them. There was this little cave like sturcture and when I reached there I floated and watched the concave rock ceiling. The rock had an amazing pattern. It looked like it hugged everything in a stealth manner. It was the most beautiful and serene thing I have ever seen. Whenever somebody says 'spirituality', for some reason that scene appears in front of my eyes.

I also sometimes feel similar things with big great rock mountains, ocean, huge forests...etc. Not that strongly. Ancient ruins on shores. Probably I would feel something similar at a desert. Esp. at night. Imagine a night sky at a desert. Never been to one though. It's so peaceful.

Is that what you guys are talking about?

Yeah, I feel stuff like that.  I call it awe, wonder, appreciation, marvel at it, and feel thankful that I can see and enjoy stuff like that.  But do I call that spiritual?  Not really.  I don't really know what a spiritual feeling should be like, so I don't know if I've ever felt spiritual.  I rather doubt it, since I don't believe in anything spiritual.  Everything we see (and don't see) and interact with is natural.  Nothing is supernatural--so how could there be spiritual?  Doesn't that sort of fit with the supernatural stuff????

[drunkenshoe]

Yeah, I feel stuff like that.  I call it awe, wonder, appreciation, marvel at it, and feel thankful that I can see and enjoy stuff like that.  But do I call that spiritual?  Not really. I don't really know what a spiritual feeling should be like, so I don't know if I've ever felt spiritual. I rather doubt it, since I don't believe in anything spiritual.  Everything we see (and don't see) and interact with is natural.  Nothing is supernatural--so how could there be spiritual?  Doesn't that sort of fit with the supernatural stuff????

Exactly, what I feel.

Actually, I thought a lot about that experience I had. I love rocks, stones...they are alive to me. Ruins, all kinds of ruins. (I'm an art hsitorian ffs). I grew up with them, their paintings. I love archeology. And I love sea. Also floating in salty warm sea, pretty much gives the feeling what we feel as a fetus. It's so normal to feel that way. It was so good though. I should find somewhere like that again.

[Solomon Zorn]

I think it's a number of variables, but they have yet to show a legitimate connection with a gene.

I think the fear of gods is rooted in weather, especially thunder.

I think the afterlife is derived form the dreamworld, and probably started as a way to shut up the wailing of someone grieving, possibly a child, who then grew up accepting it and passing it on like a meme.

I think a large part of morality comes from wearing clothes. Exposing our weakness, or nakedness, must be the simplest form of shame or guilt. Thus modesty has evolved, alongside a fear of nakedness. A whole set of obsessions about clothing, and the wearing and removing of it.

But all of it falls under the heading of fear. And all of it was long ago appropriated by those who would control others. Fear of the weather then leads to scapegoats, in an attempt to control the forces of nature. Fear of death leads to an afterlife promise of bliss for the good soldier. Fear of nakedness leads to sexual shame.

Even the positive side of the coin, the feeling that there is someone witnessing my inner life, besides myself, and all that derives from believing that, is a delusion I should never have been burdened with.

If you want to say that a tendency for irrational thinking is inherited, I might agree, but not specifically spirituality. And I find the idea that a sense of awe is what attracts people to religion, to be highly unlikely, the majority of the time.

All that being said, I often find myself in awe of nature, and ponder the thought that every living thing around me shares a universal common ancestor. That they, like me, are the end result (so far) of an evolutionary lineage that traces back billions of years. That gives me a feeling of connection, and an appreciation of the precious and fleeting nature of human life.

[Munch]

Yeah. This is something the religious spiritualists think only they can feel because of their belief in God or a god. Many honestly think you can't find a sense of peace or awe without some 'divine scripture' to tell it.
And yet I often find awe when looking up at the night sky at the stars, thinking just how vast the universe is, wondering how far it really is, if anything exists beyond what we know of the cosmos. I get a sense of euphoria when feeling the sea wind blowing over me when walking along a cliff, or seeing a work or art or architecture.

You quiet simply do not need a God to have the sense of awe and wonder, there are things beyond our reach, and we can find that sense of curiosity and want to understand without some made up voodoo trying to fill the gaps for us. Now if some want to call that spirituality, that's fine, but it's the same sense of awe and wonder our ancient ancestors felt when discovering fire.

[drunkenshoe]

Pretty much what you guys stated, I think.

If you don't have any spirituality, you are not a 'moral' person. 

[SGOS]

Yeah. This is something the religious spiritualists think only they can feel because of their belief in God or a god. Many honestly think you can't find a sense of peace or awe without some 'divine scripture' to tell it.
And yet I often find awe when looking up at the night sky at the stars...

I had a spiritual experience in my teens when I thought I felt the presence of God, and it was indeed a powerful and moving experience.  However, in a matter of weeks, it was obvious to me that what I had was a strong emotional response, which without actual evidence beyond an exceptionally good feeling, was not very conclusive.  A few years later, I began having similar emotional experiences over things unrelated to God, and which I could fully account for in precise ways, and some of them were far more intense than my previous "spiritual experience".

I have to wonder if born again Christians have had these types of experiences, or do they only have them when they are kissing a creator's ass.  If they only have them when they are thinking about God, I could see why they could be powerful motivators for belief.  But having had them in many different contexts, no matter how powerful they are, they begin to lose their appeal as evidence for the supernatural.  They become obvious emotional responses, but of an intense nature.