Is spirituailty innate?

[GSOgymrat]

Its rational to expect that this new generation of humans could not be spiritual if they had no references or history of supernatural gods.  They would have no need for it.  Because they would know where they came from.

Thats not to say that they would not gaze up at the nite sky with amazement and awe,  But that's not spirituality. 

We have different definitions of spirituality. I don't believe there is anything supernatural about spirituality (I actually don't believe there is anything supernatural). That you say these humans would look upon the universe with amazement and awe indicates you believe spirituality, as Carrier, Sagan and I define it, is innate and not a learned behavior.

[Givemeareason]

I understand your reluctance but I think most people are spiritual to at least some degree. Carl Sagan said, “Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light years and in the passages of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtly of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual.” I like atheist Richard Carrier’s description of spirituality as "a self-examined life of the mind, caring deeply about personal beliefs and ideals, focusing more about human happiness than material things, and experiencing awe, inner peace and enlightenment when fathoming human minds and the natural world." I would say philosophy examines the mind, beliefs, ideals and human happiness and spirituality adds the emotional components of awe, inner peace and enlightenment.

I am interested learning more about the psychology and neurologic basis of spiritual experiences. Feelings of transcendence, euphoria or universal love associated with spiritual experiences can be induced by taking specific drugs, experiencing steady rhythmic tones or even engaging repetitive movement. Certain religious practices these methods specifically to induce spiritual experiences. Also, people who have psychotic manic episodes often believe they suddenly understand how the universe works, that they are Jesus Christ, that number or symbols have special significance or they have special knowledge of demons or secret conspiracies. The fact that these sensations or perceptions can be chemically induced or the result of neurologic imbalances and that they are cross cultural seems to indicate sensations associated with spiritual experiences are an inherent part of our neurology. The human brain looks for patterns and tries to make sense of both internal and external stimuli. These sensation are given context through our personal experiences, e.g. Christians don't see Valkyries when they have near death experiences. I suspect individuals raised with a religious upbringing may tend to interpret sensations associated with spiritual experience in a religious context, reinforcing these religious beliefs, while non-believers interpret these sensations in a different context. I also suspect that continued association of these physical sensations and perceptions with religion keeps some people from abandoning religion because they don't see spirituality in any other context, spirituality and their religion being synonymous for them.

That spiritual experiences are created by our brains doesn’t minimize the significance of the experience; an orgasm with someone you love doesn’t become less pleasurable or meaningful after the physiology behind it is understood. Some atheists discount spirituality as something associated with religion or woo-woo, and using some definitions of spirituality that may be true, but I think reflecting on our place in the universe, our ideals, thoughts, perceptions and associated physical sensations are of value to anyone.

Based on your response, I am just going to have to forgive myself for using the word.  I see myself on a "spiritual" path in a quest of realization and understanding.  I encounter life generally with low expectations often just seeing what happens.  I feel in unity with all that is and I sense a purpose to existence.  I am very metaphysically in awe that our universe is structured in a manner that allows for our existence.  And I see randomness not as an indication of no purpose but rather as sort of a law by which the universe must function.  And I see myself in similar manner in how my thoughts might randomly occur.  So I look for ways to stimulate my thoughts such that creativity might occur.  I exist within myself taking in all that exists around me.  So I guess that might be considered spiritual.  How do you see yourself existing?

[Mike Cl]

We have different definitions of spirituality. I don't believe there is anything supernatural about spirituality (I actually don't believe there is anything supernatural). That you say these humans would look upon the universe with amazement and awe indicates you believe spirituality, as Carrier, Sagan and I define it, is innate and not a learned behavior.

I think that most on this board have feelings that are usually called 'spiritual'--it is semantics.  I just don't like 'spiritual' because the religions of the world have ruined it for me.  So, I like to think of that innate feeling as being born of curiosity.  Curiosity makes me want to look at a subject, and then look some more.  At times what I find or the realizations I come to produce that feeling.  I agree with you, Carrier and Sagan--I just dislike that word.

[SkyChief]

We have different definitions of spirituality. I don't believe there is anything supernatural about spirituality (I actually don't believe there is anything supernatural).

Okay,.. Clearly, there is some controversy about the definition of spirituality.

So, what is the actual definition of spirituality? 

When i google spirituality, here's what came up:

"Spirituality is the praxis and process of personal transformation, either in accordance with traditional religious ideals, or, increasingly, oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth independently of any specific religious context."

With this definition, spirituality would not seem to be necessarily innate. (imo!)

Can atheists be spiritual?

The problem with answering whether atheists are spiritual or not is that the term "spiritual" is so vague and ill-defined most of the time. Usually when people use it they mean something similar to, but nevertheless very distinct from, religion. This is probably an improper usage because there are very good reasons to think that spirituality is more a type of religion than anything else.


Spirituality seems to be one of those words which has as many definitions as it does people trying to define it. Often it is used in conjunction with theism because people's spirituality is "God-centered." In such cases, it is unlikely that you could find an atheist who is "spiritual" because there is a real contradiction between living a "God-centered" life while not believing in the existence of any gods.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/Spirituality.htm

[Givemeareason]

Okay,.. Clearly, there is some controversy about the definition of spirituality.

So, what is the actual definition of spirituality? 

When i google spirituality, here's what came up:

"Spirituality is the praxis and process of personal transformation, either in accordance with traditional religious ideals, or, increasingly, oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth independently of any specific religious context."

With this definition, spirituality would not seem to be necessarily innate. (imo!)

Can atheists be spiritual?

The problem with answering whether atheists are spiritual or not is that the term "spiritual" is so vague and ill-defined most of the time. Usually when people use it they mean something similar to, but nevertheless very distinct from, religion. This is probably an improper usage because there are very good reasons to think that spirituality is more a type of religion than anything else.


Spirituality seems to be one of those words which has as many definitions as it does people trying to define it. Often it is used in conjunction with theism because people's spirituality is "God-centered." In such cases, it is unlikely that you could find an atheist who is "spiritual" because there is a real contradiction between living a "God-centered" life while not believing in the existence of any gods.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/Spirituality.htm

New agers like to talk about spiritual things too.  I think that's a bunch of crap also but at least they don't proselytize.

[SkyChief]

New agers like to talk about spiritual things too.  I think that's a bunch of crap also but at least they don't proselytize.

Fair enough.  So where, exactly,  do you think the proselytizing occurs?

[Gerard]

Spirituality is one of those words that means different things to different people. And basically that's not the way words should work....

Gerard

[aitm]

welcome back Gerard.

We can watch the progression of a child cognizance as they age and how they easily become animistic without any help from us. My Granddaughter has a pet rock that she talks to and carries with her, she calls it her "friend". They easily see in things human traits and I suspect long before gods were a staple of thought that older humans kept some of that animistic thought, only it became "spiritual" as they would grow older, perhaps a pleasant or good experience happened to them under a certain tree and they associate that tree with their fortune. This is not a difficult concept to believe.

[Givemeareason]

Fair enough.  So where, exactly,  do you think the proselytizing occurs?

When we start telling others how they should conform like I have been doing here and others have been doing back to me. :-)

[the_antithesis]

I think that's too broad a definition of spirituality.

I disagree.

What some call "spirituality" is just a feeling that feels like more than a feeling. How do they know it's more than a feeling? Because they can feel it.

It is all based up emotion. Emotion and arrogance, I suppose. "If I feel this so strongly, it must mean something."

It is just feelings. Nothing more.

[Givemeareason]

Fair enough.  So where, exactly,  do you think the proselytizing occurs?

Imagine this.  Some stupid old fool stumbles in here and starts making lots of noise and then starts jumping and down with joy.  And then we start wondering what the hell is the matter with this guy.  But rather than simply asking we start trying to figure it out for ourselves.  So we then decide he is not behaving correctly so we then start trying to correct him.  But the stupid old coot won't listen so then we get annoyed.  And then the nerve of that old coot, he turns around and starts telling us how we should behave.  So now we really start getting pissed off so we decide we need to get rid of him.  He is proselytizing and he is making us look bad.  He is disrupting everything.  So you see where I am going with this...
So why dont we just rain on his parade.  Why is he so damned happy anyway?  I don't see where he has disrupted anything yet but some say his posts aren't meaningful.  So what.  Maybe they weren't intended for me.  However I have noticed his threads have gained a lot of attention.  I guess I could just ignore him.  But he just won't stop.  He is distracting and I just wish he would go away and let some other person post something more meaningful.  In the meantime, I think I will sit back and have another beer.

[GSOgymrat]

welcome back Gerard.

We can watch the progression of a child cognizance as they age and how they easily become animistic without any help from us. My Granddaughter has a pet rock that she talks to and carries with her, she calls it her "friend". They easily see in things human traits and I suspect long before gods were a staple of thought that older humans kept some of that animistic thought, only it became "spiritual" as they would grow older, perhaps a pleasant or good experience happened to them under a certain tree and they associate that tree with their fortune. This is not a difficult concept to believe.

Animism is a good example of a psychological process that makes me think there is an innate component to spiritual thinking and that religions have emerged from and intentionally used these processes to maintain themselves.

I clearly need to come up with a term other than "spiritual" if I decide to further discuss this topic.

[aitm]

Animism is a good example of a psychological process that makes me think there is an innate component to spiritual thinking and that religions have emerged from and intentionally used these processes to maintain themselves.

I clearly need to come up with a term other than "spiritual" if I decide to further discuss this topic.

Long before many of us understood what exactly a god thingy was, we had a favorite toy or stuffed animal that we prescribed human qualities to. We thought them very much as one of us only more special because they were OUR special friend,,after all, we knew we invented them for us, but we were still calmed by their presence when upset. It could simply be the replacement of the parent as they attempt to get further away from us as we age. By further away from us, just simply them getting some alone time and wanting us to start playing with ourselves in our own room and leave them the fuck alone. So we invent this new type of parent.

[GSOgymrat]

Christianity in particular is explicitly a glorified paternal relationship taken to extreme.

[Sal1981]

What are your thoughts on belief in spirituality being innate?

Micheal Shermer has accurately pointed out that we have a propensity to do Type 2 Errors (false negative) in cognition, simply due to evolution, of attributing agency to natural events.

If you mistakenly think a rustles in the bushes is a predator and not just the wind, you've made a false negative in judgement and nothing interesting happens, other than attributing agency to the wind.

However, if we didn't have this propensity to attribute agency to events, we would be dinner the next time there was a rustle in the bushes and it turned out to be a predator - so the idiom, "better safe than sorry" is accurate here.