Hands Up? Lol We're Gonna Shoot You Anyways!

[Hakurei Reimu]

Ok, I see that you accept police brutality as an acceptable inevitability,

Statistically, yes. When you gather a large number of people together, you are going to get a few assholes, and if you give them power, then the assholes are going to abuse that power. That's not the question. The question is, what do you do about it?

which you are willing to tolerate in exchange for the feeling that your own ass is more safe.

Do you actually believe that you would be more safe without any police officers?

Which means that you are in no way subject to the consequences of such a sacrifice - now isn't that just huge of you!

Wait, what?

Sorry, but I cannot in good conscience accept that, and I doubt much that millions of Americans who are now angrier than they have been about anything since the assassination of MLK are going to just quiet down and let it go either. At no time soon will that happen!

Alright, now I know you are not understanding a thing I'm saying. I am catagorically not saying, "Police officers should be allowed to do anything at all to criminals." News flash for you, scrub, that is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm encouraging people to rise up and demand them take the police to task and demand better of them. Muppet.

Photo manipulation can fix anything, given the time and skills.

Whatever, photo-magic-man.

I've been fairly slow in my experiments embellishing single images, but I know that if I had the average amount of time between incident report and trial date, I could make the typical low-res vid look like anything I want it to (especially if I wasn't a cop but a paid professional or brother of a cop who could go at it full time).

Uh huh. And what happens when a dozen people post their own videos of the same incident and none of them agree with yours?

Someday the courts are going to become aware of this, that anybody bringing them a complaint based on photos and videos has the technology available to fix them at no cost, and that it isn't really that hard to do. Then what? Then they won't admit evidence from any cams other than their own, and then once again it will be NOT ENOUGH!

First, you do know there's such thing as photo forensics, do you not? Every manipulation is going to leave artifacts in the data that a forensics expert can uncover and blow your lie wide open.

Second, if you're the victim and complaintent, then you're not going to have a "low-resolution video" of the incident to alter. Your proximity means that modern smart phones are going to get video with pretty good fidelity, which makes photo manipulation much more difficult.

[aitm]

Cops who wear rouge did this? Maybe that's what makes some women so emotional when they apply that to their faces! If it gets cops to behead civilians...

sonof a ……..well, I deserve that.

[peacewithoutgod]

Hakurei - PEACE!

I don't think I accused you of saying the police should be allowed to do anything they want to. Fear breeds anger, and you did allude to the problematic effect of angry people viewing violence against those who they identify with. I believe you also suggested that it will take awhile for it to "sink in" to those in this group that there will always be a few monsters on a police force which, when it gets bad, has taken most of its hostility out on them. Therefore I can only wonder how you could say that and not expect to offend them. Something has to done to significantly stop these abuses, and it will have to be something other than more of which began decades ago with Rodney King and went absolutely nowhere other than the wrong direction. Cameras filmed the beating of RK too, and the pigs who beat him nearly to death went free. Cameras may be all over the streets of your town, but they aren't anywhere other than on a few traffic lights on mine, and this won't be changing soon. Button cams or body cams - get serious, their only as reliable as the honor or the wearer. This is why I think policing needs to be reinvented entirely.

There's a problem with white cops in black neighborhoods, and the blacks aren't on the force for cultural bias, and the force avoids hiring them for the same. What can be done to fix this?

I see two things that need to be done:
1. Get the white cops out of black neighborhoods.
2. Find a different way of getting blacks to police their own neighborhoods.

Got ideas for how? Anyone?

[aitm]

1. Get the white cops out of black neighborhoods.
2. Find a different way of getting blacks to police their own neighborhoods.

I am not accusing you of anything at all because you express the same sentiments that many do, but do you not read what you posted and wonder if maybe we should have restaurants and hotels and bathrooms for blacks and whites as well then?   hmmm?  I think perhaps you posted a little premature...

[peacewithoutgod]

I am not accusing you of anything at all because you express the same sentiments that many do, but do you not read what you posted and wonder if maybe we should have restaurants and hotels and bathrooms for blacks and whites as well then?   hmmm?  I think perhaps you posted a little premature...

You know I wouldn't say that, even if it reads a little different from what I intended!

The problem is that policing is much too centralized, and it results in non-local police policing areas which they do not empathize with. Therefore, pollicing in America needs to be decentralized, and radically so! It's been a problem which has driven the wedge between rich and poor regardless of race, ever since car-patrols displaced the beat-walkers. Efficiency with limited manpower is a problem only because cops demand more pay than teachers, and are ridiculously coddled. The militarization of cops only drove the arms race between society and the animals which threaten it!

What we need is not more deadly toys for cops, and we sure don't need anything which would lead to racial division. We don't even need more cops at all, although keeping our sherriffs and their deputies would be necessary. We need PEOPLE patrolling their neighborhoods, whoever these people are, and whoever they are, not cops, and they should be fully supported by and trained in the community for their own security! 

[Hakurei Reimu]

Hakurei - PEACE!

I don't think I accused you of saying the police should be allowed to do anything they want to. Fear breeds anger, and you did allude to the problematic effect of angry people viewing violence against those who they identify with. I believe you also suggested that it will take awhile for it to "sink in" to those in this group that there will always be a few monsters on a police force which, when it gets bad, has taken most of its hostility out on them. Therefore I can only wonder how you could say that and not expect to offend them. Something has to done to significantly stop these abuses, and it will have to be something other than more of which began decades ago with Rodney King and went absolutely nowhere other than the wrong direction. Cameras filmed the beating of RK too, and the pigs who beat him nearly to death went free. Cameras may be all over the streets of your town,

They aren't, but just about everyone has a smart phone. A smart phone with a camera in it. Where millions of pixels resolution is the norm, and data throughput and storage of these devices going up every iteration, a "low-fidelity" shot is something that's not going to be an option. While there may not be a camera station installed at every corner, as smart phones penetrate deeper into society, what will come about will be just as good: everyone in town becomes a survalence camera, who will start filming scenes of cops arresting people because everyone likes a good drama.

What you are going to increasingly find is that, while misbehaving cops may not be proscecuted, they will be out of jobs, because the departments are not going to deal with the humiliation and scrutiny they will be under in an increasingly civillian-camera world â€" not just from the county of origin, but worldwide as shit happens and is exposed to the light of day. You don't have to make a conviction stick to cause change in a world like that.

but they aren't anywhere other than on a few traffic lights on mine, and this won't be changing soon. Button cams or body cams - get serious, their only as reliable as the honor or the wearer.

If a cop's body-cam keeps fitzing out at inconvenient moments, especially in an age where electronic reliability is only getting better, the excuse of breakdown is going to wear very thin. Also, smart phones will provide powerful corroboration/backup as they become cheaper and cheaper.

This is why I think policing needs to be reinvented entirely.

Nobody has every managed to replace an entire institution wholesale like you are advocating and make it work. Many have tried, all have ended up with basket-case societies. Like it or not, our society has adapted to the fact that cops police our actions. We depend on them being a phone call away. That's not something you can simply rip out and replace with something that performs nominally the same function differently, and to expect society to putter along with only the slightest of glitches.

You have to understand that cops do, in fact, resolve most situations peacefully. It's the fraction that doesn't that people are up in arms about.

There's a problem with white cops in black neighborhoods, and the blacks aren't on the force for cultural bias, and the force avoids hiring them for the same.

I'm not sure white cops in black neighborhoods is a problem, per se. However, policing is a skilled profession, and even the formally trained still need some training in the world to apply it effectively. That means replacing a majority of white cops in black neighborhoods with black cops (ignoring the obvious Jim Crowe segregation stink that entails) is going to take time, and as such would be a slow transition.

And before you say that those neighborhoods can and will "police themselves," no they won't. We turned the task of policing over to specialized people (cops) in the first place because we were unwilling to do it ourselves. Black neighborhoods will be no different.

The problem isâ€"

Stop right there. I don't think you know what "the problem" is. The bottom line is that policing is a stressful job. There's procedure to follow, or any evidence you gather is going to be thrown out in a court of law. That gun you disparage does take constant training to use well; you slack off on your drawing exercises, you could find your gun catching on your clothing in a critical moment and become a corpse instead of a hero. There's of course dealing with people whose tempers are running hot and may explode at a moment's notice, with real risk of death. Nobody's going to put themselves through that willingly unless you pay them accordingly.

What we need is not more deadly toys for cops, and we sure don't need anything which would lead to racial division. We don't even need more cops at all, although keeping our sherriffs and their deputies would be necessary. We need PEOPLE patrolling their neighborhoods, whoever these people are, and whoever they are, not cops, and they should be fully supported by and trained in the community for their own security! 

You realize that the crazies and criminals aren't going away because the cops do, right? They're going to be as much a threat as they ever were, and with relatively inexperienced people trying to keep order in place of cops working for free in hazardous situations, whom do you think is likely to give up sooner? No, you're going to have to at least pay them for their trouble, and train them to resolve situations, even dangerous ones, cleanly and peaceably, and if not, resolve the situations in such a way that they are likely to survive the experience. And finally, they have to make charges against wrongdoers stick in court, which is its own skill that has to be trained.

But of course, a fully supported and trained person employed in law enforcement would be... a cop. Oops.

[aitm]

  only because cops demand more pay than teachers,

ah….sorry…what?  I for one am all for getting teachers better pay. No doubt. They have a job that is far harder than anyone's really. Especially in some schools where discipline is absent, and trying to discipline can be life threatening. But people don't walk around shooting at school teaches because they are schools teachers. To claim that cops demand more than teachers is a mite of a teaser, their pay "demands" are not based or compared to what teachers get paid any more than their demands are based or compared to what burger flippers make,(though Facebook posters seem to think otherwise)

and are ridiculously coddled.

oookey dookey then. I think I'll just walk away from that one.

 

[peacewithoutgod]

Nobody has every managed to replace an entire institution wholesale like you are advocating and make it work. Many have tried, all have ended up with basket-case societies. Like it or not, our society has adapted to the fact that cops police our actions. We depend on them being a phone call away. That's not something you can simply rip out and replace with something that performs nominally the same function differently, and to expect society to putter along with only the slightest of glitches.

Yeah, the Americans failed miserably when they replaced their political system, didn't they?

Anyway, did I suggest that any changes could happen overnight? As with the unfortunate state of the health care system in my country, changes in how Americans police their neighborhoods will have to move slowly, but ultimately far away from its current position.

But of course, a fully supported and trained person employed in law enforcement would be... a cop. Oops.

We need reasonably-trained people to patrol neighborhoods who actually know those neighborhoods which they patrol, and also know and respect the people who live there. The status quo current system has a serious, and unmitigable problem with that. Oops!

Fully-trained professionals would be working for the local sheriff, and they would be responsible for the processing of arrests - therefore, this elected office would need to be expanded a bit. But instead of patrolling, they would be on call to assist neighborhood patrols, while providing backup and direction in situations. Because when you have those who care watching the neighborhood, you will have a better neighborhood which the baddies will stay out of.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

Fully trained professionals working for the local sheriff and responsible for processing arrests....

...I think there's a word for that.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Yeah, the Americans failed miserably when they replaced their political system, didn't they?

They didn't. Not completely. The american political system inherited much of its precident and form from the parlementary system that had been practiced in England for centuries.

Anyway, did I suggest that any changes could happen overnight? As with the unfortunate state of the health care system in my country, changes in how Americans police their neighborhoods will have to move slowly, but ultimately far away from its current position.

Fair enough. Let's take a look at that plan of yours...

We need reasonably-trained people

Training someone to a reasonable level of law enforcement competence isn't free, or even cheap. Who's going to pay for this?

to patrol neighborhoods who actually know those neighborhoods which they patrol,

What makes you think that people who live in the neighborhood have any better grasp of the neighborhood than a cop does? Wouldn't your solution be just as well served as moving the beat cops into the neighborhood in which they patrol?

and also know and respect the people who live there.

All of the mistreatment we've seen so far is basic failure to treat human beings as human beings. There's no special advantage of having a "local person" on patrol in this instance.

The status quo current system has a serious, and unmitigable problem with that. Oops!

Nobody is preventing a cop from living in the same neighborhood they patrol. 

Fully-trained professionals would be working for the local sheriff, and they would be responsible for the processing of arrests - therefore, this elected office would need to be expanded a bit. But instead of patrolling, they would be on call to assist neighborhood patrols, while providing backup and direction in situations. Because when you have those who care watching the neighborhood, you will have a better neighborhood which the baddies will stay out of.

Oh yes, the citizens go out on patrol and suddenly every criminal is scared shitless. Except for the citizens who wash out of training. Except the citizens who have other obligations (to their families, etc). Except the citizens you can't pay enough to go out and risk life and limb. Except the citizens who don't know what the fuck they're doing. Except the citizens who think its someone else's job to do patrols. Except the citizens who figure out "patrols" take far more time and effort than they're willing to give. Except the citizens who are criminals themselves.

Hmmm... this isn't looking too thought out.

If these people care so much about their neighborhoods, why aren't they doing more already? It's not as if citizen's watch is a brand new thing. Participation in citizen watches is poor even when all you needed was a good set of eyes and knowledge of the neighborhood. Now, you're proposing a citizen watch that you have to actually train for.

I don't think the citizenry cares as much as you think you do.

[peacewithoutgod]

They didn't. Not completely. The american political system inherited much of its precident and form from the parlementary system that had been practiced in England for centuries.

And I'm not calling for anything not actually preconceived either, so can we dispense with the hypocritical bullshit allegations already? Neighborhood foot patrols actually worked quite well in this country, and around the world until car patrols drove the wedge between communities.

Fair enough. Let's take a look at that plan of yours...
Training someone to a reasonable level of law enforcement competence isn't free, or even cheap. Who's going to pay for this?
What makes you think that people who live in the neighborhood have any better grasp of the neighborhood than a cop does? Wouldn't your solution be just as well served as moving the beat cops into the neighborhood in which they patrol?

Ignorance is strength!

Honest to fuck, Hakurei, of all people here I never would have guessed you being so ignorant as this on people!

All of the mistreatment we've seen so far is basic failure to treat human beings as human beings. There's no special advantage of having a "local person" on patrol in this instance.

Nobody is preventing a cop from living in the same neighborhood they patrol. 

Nobody is requireing them to, and that's the point!

Oh yes, the citizens go out on patrol and suddenly every criminal is scared shitless. Except for the citizens who wash out of training. Except the citizens who have other obligations (to their families, etc). Except the citizens you can't pay enough to go out and risk life and limb. Except the citizens who don't know what the fuck they're doing. Except the citizens who think its someone else's job to do patrols. Except the citizens who figure out "patrols" take far more time and effort than they're willing to give. Except the citizens who are criminals themselves.

It's about restoring confidence in the police system for all communities, not about intimidation of anyone. Thank you for clarifying how much you are out-of-touch with the reality of this problem. You probably live behind a gate with guards. [/quote]

Hmmm... this isn't looking too thought out.

You aren't thinking at all on this one - you're filibustering, plus I believe you are doing this for personal reasons. That's just shameful, because making society work again and ending the bloodshed of innocent civilians should be far more important than whatever personal issues you have with me.

If these people care so much about their neighborhoods, why aren't they doing more already?

Because they can't - it's really that simple.

It's not as if citizen's watch is a brand new thing.

Try googleing George Zimmerman!

Participation in citizen watches is poor even when all you needed was a good set of eyes and knowledge of the neighborhood. Now, you're proposing a citizen watch that you have to actually train for.

See George Zimmerman again - this is one of the reasons why training should be required! Not just for firearms training, but for proper procedures and psychological screening as well.

I don't think the citizenry cares as much as you think you do.

I think they deserve a chance, which is not something they really have had. Put the power back in the hands of the people who care, and it doesn't matter how few there are who care.  A few will inspire a few more, eventually leading to community investment, while the bad guys will follow the path of least resistance elsewhere.

[Hakurei Reimu]

And I'm not calling for anything not actually preconceived either, so can we dispense with the hypocritical bullshit allegations already? Neighborhood foot patrols actually worked quite well in this country, and around the world until car patrols drove the wedge between communities.

Proof or take a hike.

Ignorance is strength!

Honest to fuck, Hakurei, of all people here I never would have guessed you being so ignorant as this on people!

You're the one who somehow thinks that drawing people who somehow don't know which houses are harboring criminals constitute them "knowing the community." For fuck's sake, it doesn't take "knowing the community" to figure out that you don't shoot someone who has their hands up. If you're doing that, you're too fucked up to be a police officer, even in the community you hail from.

I can't believe that I have to explain this to you.

Nobody is requireing them to, and that's the point!

So why do they need to drop the requirement? Because I'm sure that a good cop would rather patrol the place where they actually live over one that they don't, if nothing more than to guarantee that the place where they live is a little bit safer. Less of a commute to the station, too! Now, why don't they make it exclusive?

Because they can't. There are too damn few cops hailing from those neighborhoods for it to be patrolled exclusively by cops from those neighborhoods. So they have to bring others in to make up for the shortfall. Your requirement would leave my neighborhood literally without any law enforcement whatsoever!

And that's the point!

It's about restoring confidence in the police system for all communities, not about intimidation of anyone. Thank you for clarifying how much you are out-of-touch with the reality of this problem. You probably live behind a gate with guards.

You're the only one who would leave the gates without guards.

You aren't thinking at all on this one - you're filibustering, plus I believe you are doing this for personal reasons.

I'd think, "Leaving me without any police coverage whatsoever," is a damn personal and relevant reason, bucko!

That's just shameful, because making society work again and ending the bloodshed of innocent civilians should be far more important than whatever personal issues you have with me.

Yes, I have personal issues with you because I think that your solution is unworkable and have the nerve to say so. What the fuck ever.

Because they can't - it's really that simple.
Try googleing George Zimmerman!

I was here when we were tussling it out about George Zimmerman, and I was on the side of "George Zimmerman was wrong for what he was doing and deserved jail." So, yeah, I know George Zimmerman, thank you.

And guess what â€" George Zimmerman wasn't a cop! He was a neighborhood patroller just like you are proposing would save us from ourselves! He disobeyed police dispatchers who told him to stay put and went out to confront Martin and subsequently killed him. If anything, Zimmerman is an argument against civilian patrols, not for. Muppet.

See George Zimmerman again - this is one of the reasons why training should be required! Not just for firearms training, but for proper procedures and psychological screening as well.

Yep, and most of them aren't going to make the cut and wash out. We have enough problems with training up people who want to be cops â€" want to be cops badly enough to bust their butts and get the training and credentials required to perform their jobs right! Again, these are the ones who want in, yet it doesn't seem to be enough. How are you going to make up for the shortfall? Are you going to press people into becoming your new breed of cop? Yeah, that'll work! And way to trample upon American principles of freedom of choice!

I think they deserve a chance, which is not something they really have had. Put the power back in the hands of the people who care, and it doesn't matter how few there are who care.  A few will inspire a few more, eventually leading to community investment, while the bad guys will follow the path of least resistance elsewhere.

Nobody is preventing anyone from a certain neighborhood from entering the police academy, get the training, and then come back to their communities to make it better. They're not doing it. They're not doing it because they don't care enough about their own community to make it better in this way. This has a myriad of reasons from being too economically depressed to get police academy training, to being unwilling or unable to complete the training, to having the police business looking unattractive enough for them as a career, such that they enter some other line of work and move out of their depressed neighborhoods. And because there's a shortage of locals wanting/able to be cops that they have to cart in cops from other areas in the first place.

None of these will be solved by inventing a whole new police force. These are problems with economics and education, and incentivization to attract people into the profession of policing. They are also problems with the inherent dangers and stress of police work. And they're problems with the police's reputation itself.

Firing cops that behave badly disincentivizes cops from behaving badly. That's a start. Now we need to incentivize people to be cops in the first place, because you're never going to get your new police force in the numbers you need currently unless you press them into service, which will not make for happy cops or communities. I really think it's going to take a cultural change to do this, because currently, most people are going to follow the path of least resistence and aid the criminals.

[peacewithoutgod]

Proof or take a hike.

Now you're getting downright rude.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to mine. If you can't abide by that, then you can go fuck off.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

Now you're getting downright rude.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to mine. If you can't abide by that, then you can go fuck off.

Here we expect people to provide evidence for their claims, it's a valid request.

[peacewithoutgod]

Here we expect people to provide evidence for their claims, it's a valid request.

If I'm not talking fact, then so fucking what - niether is anyone else on this issue, excepting one thing - the current system doesn't work! If you think the status quo situation can be fixed with technology, then history says otherwise. America has a problem with a group which has the same political rights on paper, but they aren't in fact included in society, and they are severely under-represented on police forces. This may be on account of cultural issues which make its members unwilling to join police forces, or it may be that they don't really get the jobs they apply for. It may be that they are discouraged from the crushing bigotry they face when they join the force. Therefore, when Hakurei says there's "nothing to stop them from signing up at the police academy", that is nothing short of crass, ignorant bullshit!

Anyway, I made my attempt to seed what thinking I could outside the box, and you people just divebomb and shed it like so many cackling crows. What they're doing now doesn't work, the problem is strongly related to bigoted white cops in black neighborhoods, and I'm not going to tell you how to go look at the news reports for proof on that.

You know something, fuck this discussion, I've had enough of trying to fix what nobody wants to fix. You ultra-liberal assholes are going to tax me out of my very modest home on your tech spending sprees, they will be a glorious waste of money, and then I'll move to Florida where at least I can have the weapons which make it possible for me to defend myself.