All lives matter?

[mauricio]

Well... No. No you didn't. You explain why my position is, without identifying what my position is.
You seem to still severely misunderstanding and misrepresenting our position and points and until I know exactly what is going on in your head about what they are, not why they are, I will not continue. At this point I don't even know what you're discussing.



Sent from your mom.

welcome to trying to debate drunkenshoe, she goes in long ass irrelevant rants when she could just easily directly quote and refute your arguments since according to her diatribes they are so weak, but apparently it is beneath her to even try to address the word of her opponents she must do her arrogant armchair psychologist drivel which is hilarious because she says completely stupid shit which sometimes seems more like the product of a lack of reading comprehension.

[PickelledEggs]

welcome to trying to debate drunkenshoe, she goes in long ass irrelevant rants when she could just easily directly quote and refute your arguments since according to her diatribes they are so weak, but apparently it is beneath her to even try to address the word of her opponents she must do her arrogant armchair psychologist drivel which is hilarious because she says completely stupid shit which sometimes seems more like the product of a lack of reading comprehension.

She is well read. I think it's a mix between her stress from what is going on in Turkey right now and language barrier stuff.

She likes to analyze things. And I like that, it's just very frustrating when she is analyzing something that isn't there because she stubbornly is invested in her analysis.

[Nonsensei]

Theres no upside to a prolonged argument with DS. I learned this lesson long ago. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong in such a scenario since the only possible outcome is that you bang your head against a wall and get insulted for your efforts.

I just make a statement, respond once to her overly aggressive response and then I call it quits. Theres nothing to be gained beyond that point. If she wants to take that as a victory for her corner, well we all live under some illusions.

[Cocoa Beware]

SJWs and white supremacism are two sides of the same coin. The rational thing to do is to throw away the coin.                   

Well put.

SJWs have this terrible habit of asserting that the value of someone's worth or opinion depends upon their race/gender. As far as I can tell the ones who partake in this are doing something that is pretty much indistinguishable from any other kind of discrimination.

At the end of the day they seem to believe that some people are more equal then others.

[PickelledEggs]

Yes. I know, but let's just leave it and move on. No point in beating off a dead horse.

[mauricio]

Well put.

SJWs have this terrible habit of asserting that the value of someone's worth or opinion depends upon their race/gender. As far as I can tell the ones partake in this are doing something that is pretty much indistinguishable from any other kind of discrimination.

At the end of the day they seem to believe that some people are more equal then others.

It's pretty simple really if an evil oppressor aka white cis male makes an argument on a socjus topic it is completely irrelevant to retort by pointing to his sexuality or race as somehow diminishing his argument. That is a textbook case of ad hominem. And if indeed his argument was so wrong because of his privileged status it would be no trouble for it to be refuted without raping the laws of debate with inane rants about identity.

[drunkenshoe]

The concept of race- that humanity is divided into biologically separate groups that represent sub-species of some kind- is a specifically modern western one. Its genesis lies in mid-eighteenth century developments in biological classification; both Buffon and Linnaeus wrote about race as a biological category. "Scientific" racism had its heyday in the period from 1850 to the end of WW2. The "scientific" racists produced elaborate hierarchies of allegedly iinferior and superior racial types, with pale-skinned Europeans ("whites") inevitably at the top, and dark-skinned Africans and Native Australians ("blacks") inevitably at the bottom.

Race proved to be a popular concept, and its sadly unsurprising that this was the case. The historical period in question was one in which pale-skinned Europeans were busily exploiting their dark-skinned slaves, and busily conquering lands inhabited by people with differently coloured skin. The discourse of "scientific" racism that people like de Gobineau articulated was a very convenient justification for their atrocious behaviour towards their differently-skin-coloured victims. And skin colour wasn't the only thing- Jews were also classified as a "race", giving allegedly "scientific" support to the anti-Semitism that had been endemic for centuries in western culture. And we all know how that one ended up.

Happily, modern Biology has pretty much discarded the concept of "race" completely- it turns out that "race" just isn't a useful way of looking at population genetics.

Yes, we all agree on this. Science is beautiful isn't it? It's also frustrating how that doesn't work with people.

The reality is, if you print what you wrote above on paper and hand out; write a manifesto based on modern science and race and attempt to enlighten people and manage to get suceed your voice being heard, get loud and organised, you and people working with you would be labeled as a radical SJWS immedietaly.

Because all that SJW groups, including all protest groups start with similar intentions, because tons of things are wrong in the society and people do not start this with a deadly ideology as people assume. This is your wrong and they have others. The difference is that yours is the mainstream reaction. The main system that doesn't want individual groups becaus ethey are a lot of pain in the ass. Doesn't matter if you want it or not, you fall into the authoritative side when you want to 'throw all the SJW out'. There is no other way to progress, but pick a freaking fight.

Nobody gets to change human narrative and create a paradigm by throwing groups out. Nobody, no culture has succeeded on this. Ever. You cannot create new human categories out of nowhere.

Now...one might think that progressives and others on the left would wish to do likewise and say something like "Race should not be a legitimate category in political discourse". After all, as well as being unscientific, "race" has a proven its toxicity over and over and over again. But no...some supposed left-wingers- in the absence of a better term I'll call them SJWs- actually buy into the whole idea of racial distinctions being fundamental. In other words: SJWs accept and promulgate the worldview that underlies racial supremacism, while simultaneously claiming to be fighting against it.

Note that I say that SJWs are supposedly left-wing. Personally, I view them as belonging much more on the authoritarian right. The difference between the SJWs and the KKK (and their ilk) seems to me to be this: the SJWs are pushing for priveleges for relatively marginalized groups; the KKK wants priveleges for the powerful pale-skinned majority. Thats an important distinction because it makes the KKK far more dangerous- their support base is potentially much bigger and stronger. But other than that, the two have a great deal in common: as well as a shared underlying worldview, they're both pro-censorship, anti-individualist (people are mainly seen in terms of group membership), pro-quotas, tolerant of racially-motivated violence from "their" side, and so on.

SJWs and white supremacism are two sides of the same coin. The rational thing to do is to throw away the coin.

There are two parties in the US. They are both extremely right wing and self servicing and American people simply cannot get rid of them. There is only one politics and two different sides with two 'menus' (abortion, immigration, religion...etc) designed for two basic characters pushing and pulling people around it and the rest is forced to vote for one.

And you are talking about a fantasy 'left' and trying to put these groups in some political context while there is nothing but just one. These groups exist in the US, and grew loud and 'violent' because there is no immediate way to fight against the current political mess. There is NO OPPOSITION in the USA. And in this political climate concerning the whole world everything is getting more extreme. These are reactive groups, not a part of a movement that is constructing an ideology or pushing a relavent one. It's a natural outcome. People have been creating their own opposition for a long time in the US. But also the global movement to the right, violent-extreme policies, the election season is making it worse and worse.

*The first biggest 'problem' with these groups that doesn't matter how much you can 'refute' their existence in theory, they are the natural result of different people or people with different cultures suffering various countless bullshit and social hierarchy in daily life and at some point getting organised to do something about it. Self realisation and identity. The fact that politicians would use them in every way doesn't change the fact that being a social primate and the undeniable social hierarchy colliding is the real trigger here. 

You cannot 'throw away the coin'. It's a bullshit, angry SJW slogan itself. Not to mention a delusional, invalid statement. You cannot 'cancel' or punish individuality. Can't be done. That's only possible by founding an authoritative system. Don't make the mistake of thinking a system of the sort would be different in the USA. America is a religious, extremely nationalist country, any movement of the sort; enforcing to silence these groups; or trying to 'correct' them would end up transforming the country in to a Thecoratic Empire in time, after a bloody mess. You cannot just give that constitution to people along with a culture and identity of 'you can do and be whatever you want; this is the land of freedom' policy and then try to take that back 'oops that was a mistake'. They are not able to do tha in the ME. USA? ROFL.

In short, 'the people' and the most important element of the western civilisation; individuality are missing in your vision. You ignore practically the only difference between Western civilisation and others in your evaluation of this issue. You cannot solve this by treating it as an illness with writing an appropiate prescription. If we could enlighten people or reason with them making scientific explanations we wouldn't have these issues in the first place.

*The second big problem about SJW groups -or any protest groups for that matter- this is how we got progress for thousands of years and the only group of people that doesn't see them in this way; deny and refuse them; see them as something dangerous and to get rid off has always been the same group. It's the white race. Stomp your foot all you want. You are against these groups, because you don't agree they actually face the problems and issues they claim they do, because you, yourself don't while this is the whole issue and see them as an group of extremsts. Simple as this. the conviction that everything is actually OK somehow. It is not. Nowhere near.

Governments and states do not work for people. They are power zones that work to maintain a certain order to secure that power zone status and people are simply resources to them. This is not some 'evil' conspiracy against people, but the system of standardisation initiated by the French Revolution. Modern State.

The moment you have determine a standard, everything else that is different than that standard is a lower class; the other. Culture, race, gender, sexual oreintation, language...etc you name it. But you have to make standards. And people will push and pull these standards doesn't matter who likes it or not. Because that standard is always going to be the first class group. Note that this class is not an economical one, but needlessly to say it is pretty much connected. And people will always fight against that class to gain that status. ALWAYS. It's neither an American invention nor something about SJW groups only. You can try to throw them away all you want, they will always come back and get loud AND WILL make a change. That's how we arrive here at this point.

Blaming racial SWJ groups with racial supremacism, ferminist groups with gender supremacism -I am making a generalisation, because it is safe to do- is exactly the same reaction that was given by monarchy and feodalite in the past -not that long ago. That's the category. There is no other one. And you cannot create one out of human narrative by yourself; it is equal to one person creating a paradigm by himself and define everything we know in terms so different we can't even understand.

There comes Cultural Marxism; the only available theory and system of criticism. Even when you criticise SJW and these movements you are included in it. If you are criticising authority and the social standard, the current political situation you live in  -doesn't mean to what end- you are standing on cultural marxism. It's not the moves or the pawns, it is the freaking board itself. Break that there is literally nothing else. LOL Not that is doable, just trying to make it simple.

America is not in a unique situation or dealing with an 'original problem', it has always been the same. It will happen and it will never stop. There will be groups reacting to SJWs and other groups reacting to them. This will go on and on and on and on. They are not going anywhere.

People reacting to this almost as if they are living in unique times of humanity. It's the normal way of life that has alway been. Nothing has changed.

[drunkenshoe]

Theres no upside to a prolonged argument with DS. I learned this lesson long ago. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong in such a scenario since the only possible outcome is that you bang your head against a wall and get insulted for your efforts.

I just make a statement, respond once to her overly aggressive response and then I call it quits. Theres nothing to be gained beyond that point. If she wants to take that as a victory for her corner, well we all live under some illusions.

Really, how was my response overly agressive? There wasn't anything you can engage in it either? I talked about something your wrote as a real life experience to put things in perspective so you could get what I think and respond.

I keep trying to communicate with you all this time and you don't try to engage anything I write, but you keep dismissing everything I write as wrong, toxic and agressive. For everything I write. EVERYTHING. You have never tried to get into a communication with me ever. You looked down down from your high horse and shaked your finger at me, this is what you have done. 

OK. You have it. This is the end of me trying to communicate with you. I won't read your posts or respond to it.

[Nonsensei]

Really, how was my response overly agressive? There wasn't anything you can engage in it either? I talked about something your wrote as a real life experience to put things in perspective so you could get what I think and respond.

I keep trying to communicate with you all this time and you don't try to engage anything I write, but you keep dismissing everything I write as wrong, toxic and agressive. For everything I write. EVERYTHING. You have never tried to get into a communication with me ever. You looked down down from your high horse and shaked your finger at me, this is what you have done. 

OK. You have it. This is the end of me trying to communicate with you. I won't read your posts or respond to it.

Couldn't care less what you do. You won't accept any criticism, either of the content of your posts or the style of them. Do you realize that you have never once admitted being wrong about literally anything? Are you really that perfect?

Even Shiranu admits when he is wrong, even if it's in a backhanded way.

What exactly am I losing by your refusal to engage me? And that's what it is. An engagement, as if this were a battle and you're in it to win no matter what you have to say to do it. Throw in sneering condescension, change the nature of the argument, engage in a psychoanalysis of your opponent. There are no holds barred as long as it looks like you won in the end.

Why would I say anything to the loss of that sort of discourse other than 'good riddance'?

[drunkenshoe]

Couldn't care less what you do. You won't accept any criticism, either of the content of your posts or the style of them. Do you realize that you have never once admitted being wrong about literally anything? Are you really that perfect?

Even Shiranu admits when he is wrong, even if it's in a backhanded way.

What exactly am I losing by your refusal to engage me? And that's what it is. An engagement, as if this were a battle and you're in it to win no matter what you have to say to do it. Throw in sneering condescension, change the nature of the argument, engage in a psychoanalysis of your opponent. There are no holds barred as long as it looks like you won in the end.

Why would I say anything to the loss of that sort of discourse other than 'good riddance'?

I have admitted -like everyone else- being wrong about something many times in this forum. I have posted many self criticisms and stood openly vulnerable also apologised when necessary. Just like I did to GSO with in this very thread and in a different way admiting personal, emotional reaction to Pickel. But how would you know? What wuold change if you do?

I have never had this much of unjustified, empty hatred thrown at me by one person in my entire life.

Am I really that perfect? What the fuck does that mean? What does 'being perfect' mean? What does perfect mean? What does me, as a person have to do with anything, any issue we talk about in this forum, about politics, religion, culture...all those human right issues this and that?

I live in a muslim country under the fire of several terrorism groups. I don't know what is going to happen to me tomorrow. I am working my ass off to make a job work that literally has no value in the culture I live in and am I that perfect? What the fuck does that mean? Go fuck yourself you vile, dumb, damaged piece of shit.

[Duncle]

Yes, we all agree on this. Science is beautiful isn't it? It's also frustrating how that doesn't work with people.

...

People reacting to this almost as if they are living in unique times of humanity. It's the normal way of life that has alway been. Nothing has changed.

Hmm...Well...First of all, thank you for spending so much time and effort replying to my post. The problem that I'm having with your post is that not all of it makes sense to me, and the parts that do make sense often seem to hinge on a misunderstanding of my position.

For example: I don't want to censor the speech of you or any other SJW, or for that matter anyone else (that includes Nazis, Stalinists and would-be Theocrats). What I would, however, like to see is a de-legitimization of racialist politics. So when someone says "racial group X should get special treatment", the reaction that I'd like to see would be something like " racial groups are a pseudo-scientific myth; political racial discourse is as toxic as it comes- your appeal to the concept of race has no place in politics".

For example: I don't want to do anything bad to people who are SJWs, but I would like them to jettison their ideology, which I frankly despise. I would also like to see non-authoritarian left-wingers disown the SJWs. As I said before, their ideological kinfolk are the white supremacists, not the Socialists, left-wing Anarchists, libertarian Marxists etc.

You seem to think that SJW-ism is the only ideology of resistance available to people who are being screwed by our socio-economic system. This is complete nonsense. You really need to read more widely. As a start, here are some search terms that you could try googling: Anarchism, Autonomism, Libertarian Marxism, Syndicalism, Situationism, Michel Foucault, Manuel DeLanda.

I'm sure that there are other points in your post that I ought to reply to, but frankly some  most of it is pretty incoherent.

[PickelledEggs]

Hmm...Well...First of all, thank you for spending so much time and effort replying to my post. The problem that I'm having with your post is that not all of it makes sense to me, and the parts that do make sense often seem to hinge on a misunderstanding of my position.

It's because she either 1: didn't fully read your post 2:  doesn't understand your post 3: miscommunication what she was trying to say on her end 4: some sort of  combination of 1, 2, and 3 because of language barrier issues or 5: she is intentionally twisting your point (I don't think it's 5)



Btw, @drunkenshoe, watch with the "piece of shit" and "go fuck yourself" stuff. No one has talked to you like that.

[drunkenshoe]

Hmm...Well...First of all, thank you for spending so much time and effort replying to my post. The problem that I'm having with your post is that not all of it makes sense to me, and the parts that do make sense often seem to hinge on a misunderstanding of my position.

Hmmm. "SJWs and white supremacism are two sides of the same coin. The rational thing to do is to throw away the coin." This is a very straight and extreme statement. It's hard to misunderstand.

After writing that you went along with this:

For example: I don't want to censor the speech of you or any other SJW, or for that matter anyone else (that includes Nazis, Stalinists and would-be Theocrats). What I would, however, like to see is a de-legitimization of racialist politics. So when someone says "racial group X should get special treatment", the reaction that I'd like to see would be something like " racial groups are a pseudo-scientific myth; political racial discourse is as toxic as it comes- your appeal to the concept of race has no place in politics".

In my my incohorent post I wrote simply that you can't do that. Nobody or no authority can. Because you can't reason with masses of people with scientific explanations or with nuances of political propaganda available to them on how they reflect in their society. You are describing an ideal but nothing about human reality. That was the point of my incoherent post in simple English.

For example: I don't want to do anything bad to people who are SJWs, but I would like them to jettison their ideology, which I frankly despise. I would also like to see non-authoritarian left-wingers disown the SJWs. As I said before, their ideological kinfolk are the white supremacists, not the Socialists, left-wing Anarchists, libertarian Marxists etc.

Well again, in my incoherent post I clearly said that SJW groups are not a part of any ideology, but that they are simply sub reactive groups to the situtaion in the country they exist in the last couple of decades.

You seem to think that SJW-ism is the only ideology of resistance available to people who are being screwed by our socio-economic system. This is complete nonsense. You really need to read more widely.

No, I am saying they have nothing to do with any ideology at all in simple English. I don't think they are screwed at all. I specifically said that 'the class' I used has nothing to the with economics in fact, but of course related to.

As a start, here are some search terms that you could try googling: Anarchism, Autonomism, Libertarian Marxism, Syndicalism, Situationism, Michel Foucault, Manuel DeLanda.

No, actually we are in the area of Frankfrut School altogether. None of the above is available as active movements in your country, assuming you are American. Corporate ruling is.

I'm sure that there are other points in your post that I ought to reply to, but frankly some  most of it is pretty incoherent.

If you can follow Foucault and understand the English language, you can perfectly follow what I wrote. Bothering to do it though something altogether different.

[PickelledEggs]

[drunkenshoe]

Btw, @drunkenshoe, watch with the "piece of shit" and "go fuck yourself" stuff. No one has talked to you like that.

So if I don't use those words and style of expression, am I allowed to abuse and provoke the hell out of a poster with snarky remarks and out of nowhere insults to his every post as Nonsensei has been doing it to me? I promise it won't be uncouth.

Tell me, Pickel, if I promise to agree with the majority on the topic, will I get a cookie too? See, I need to ask this, because I have no idea as how does this go as I don't get anything written in this forum. It's interesting that suddenly I forgot the entire English language and everyone got very hard to understand with their opinions as opposed to my incoherent babblings.