What's so irritating about Christians?

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Straight up, reasonist: Did Jesus exist or not?

Could have. But then again, so did Muhammad. In fact, there is actually more documentation of Muhammad existing than Jesus, and he was extremely successful at pushing Christianity out of the Middle East. So, um... Allahu Ackbar?

[Randy Carson]

Straight up: we both don't know. You PRETEND to know, I don't care one way or the other if there was a Jew who preached 2,000 years ago Mosaic law to Jews. It has zero to do with divinity. I even grant you that he existed because it is completely meaningless. It is irrelevant to the topic if the bible is the divinely inspired word of a deity or not.

Could have. But then again, so did Muhammad. In fact, there is actually more documentation of Muhammad existing than Jesus, and he was extremely successful at pushing Christianity out of the Middle East. So, um... Allahu Ackbar?

Thanks guys. I will move forward in our discussions under the assumption that you accept that Jesus really existed. This is important, because when we think about Jesus, there are only four options:

Legend
Lunatic
Liar
Lord

Now, I know that you don't agree that Jesus is Lord/Divine. So, either he is a lunatic who claimed to be God or he knew he wasn't God but lied about it.

What do you think? Was Jesus crazy or lying when He claimed to be God?

[Baruch]

Thank you for the link; very informative site. Love the quote from Hitch, my hero:
As Christopher Hitchens puts it: “One must state it plainly. Religion comes from the period of human prehistory where nobody had the smallest idea what was going on. It comes from the bawling and fearful infancy of our species, and is a babyish attempt to meet our inescapable demand for knowledge.”

My comeback is that people still don't have the smallest idea what is going on ;-)  People only live so long, some grow some don't, and either way you end up dead, and the children throw out everything you teach them and it all starts again.

The Jesus Seminar taught me a lot, back in the day (including where they were biased).  But so did being married to a seminary student.

[SGOS]

Thanks guys. I will move forward in our discussions under the assumption that you accept that Jesus really existed.

That's one way to settle the question.  Just assume everyone agrees with you.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Now, I know that you don't agree that Jesus is Lord/Divine. So, either he is a lunatic who claimed to be God or he knew he wasn't God but lied about it.

Or he was just mistaken. It's not like he'd be the only otherwise-reasonable person who became convinced he was in some way divinely appointed. YouTuber Evid3nce, creator of the "Why I Am No Longer Christian" series of videos, briefly became convinced that he was the Second Coming, only to be talked out of it three days later. He wasn't crazy, just mistaken.

The human brain receives a dopamine "reward" for believing it has stumbled upon some hidden truth, and many people who are otherwise perfectly reasonable will continue to ride that dopamine train rather than consider the possibility of being wrong. This is part of why cults and other devout religious groups are able to have their staying power. They will endlessly argue with dissenters because it gives them pleasure to do so... kind of like you're doing right now.

[Mike Cl]

Now, I know that you don't agree that Jesus is Lord/Divine. So, either he is a lunatic who claimed to be God or he knew he wasn't God but lied about it.

What do you think? Was Jesus crazy or lying when He claimed to be God?

I guess you really are than dense!  You seem to really like 'debating' with yourself.  Nobody here has suggested they accept your idea that jesus was an actual person.  The closest you may have come is ---I don't know and I don't care.
Jesus was/is and always will be a fiction.  A fiction that your church has made billions from and wants to keep the cash cow going--by any and all means necessary.  Your church's bloody history proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[reasonist]

"Thanks guys. I will move forward in our discussions under the assumption..."

Randy Carson's favorite word.

[Randy Carson]

My comeback is that people still don't have the smallest idea what is going on ;-)  People only live so long, some grow some don't, and either way you end up dead, and the children throw out everything you teach them and it all starts again.

The Jesus Seminar taught me a lot, back in the day (including where they were biased).  But so did being married to a seminary student.

You are a guy and you were married to a seminarian? Or do I have that wrong?

[Randy Carson]

Or he was just mistaken. It's not like he'd be the only otherwise-reasonable person who became convinced he was in some way divinely appointed. YouTuber Evid3nce, creator of the "Why I Am No Longer Christian" series of videos, briefly became convinced that he was the Second Coming, only to be talked out of it three days later. He wasn't crazy, just mistaken.

The human brain receives a dopamine "reward" for believing it has stumbled upon some hidden truth, and many people who are otherwise perfectly reasonable will continue to ride that dopamine train rather than consider the possibility of being wrong. This is part of why cults and other devout religious groups are able to have their staying power. They will endlessly argue with dissenters because it gives them pleasure to do so... kind of like you're doing right now.

That pushes him toward the lunatic fringe. Folks don't normally think they are God.

And sure, discussing religion is fun! There are quite a few people enjoying these threads along with me.

[Randy Carson]

I guess you really are than dense!  You seem to really like 'debating' with yourself.  Nobody here has suggested they accept your idea that jesus was an actual person.  The closest you may have come is ---I don't know and I don't care.
Jesus was/is and always will be a fiction.  A fiction that your church has made billions from and wants to keep the cash cow going--by any and all means necessary.  Your church's bloody history proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Mythicists are to atheism what fundamentalists are to Christianity.

Were you a fundamentalist Christian at some point, Mike?

Are you a mythicist now?

[Hydra009]

there are only four options:

Legend
Lunatic
Liar
Lord

Now, I know that you don't agree that Jesus is Lord/Divine. So, either he is a lunatic who claimed to be God or he knew he wasn't God but lied about it.

What do you think? Was Jesus crazy or lying when He claimed to be God?

Wow, it's been a long time since I've seen the Lewis Trilemma presented seriously.

I'm just going to leave this here

[Randy Carson]

Wow, it's been a long time since I've seen the Lewis Trilemma presented seriously.

I'm just going to leave this here

Thanks for the link. The criticisms are weak, IMO. Near the bottom, Christopher Hitchens is quoted.

The atheist writer Christopher Hitchens, on the other hand, argues that Lewis's contention is right but offers a different interpretation: in contrast to Christian moralists like Thomas Jefferson and Ernest Renan, he writes, "I am bound to say that Lewis is more honest here. Absent a direct line to the Almighty and a conviction that the last days are upon us, how is it 'moral' [...] to claim a monopoly on access to heaven, or to threaten waverers with everlasting fire, let alone to condemn fig trees and persuade devils to infest the bodies of pigs? Such a person if not divine would be a sorcerer and a fanatic."

In other words, a lunatic.

So, what is YOUR view of Jesus? Who or what was He?

[Mike Cl]

Randy--Mythicists are to atheism what fundamentalists are to Christianity.
Mike--I don't see the connection.

Randy--Were you a fundamentalist Christian at some point, Mike?
Mike--No.  But first exposed to christinaty in Alabama with the Baptist, Assembly of God and Methodist churches. 

Randy--Are you a mythicist now?
Mike--You really don't read other peoples posts do you?  How can you ask that question?  It is clear I think Jesus was Ahistorical--not of history--a fiction. 

[Unbeliever]

That pushes him toward the lunatic fringe. Folks don't normally think they are God.

And sure, discussing religion is fun! There are quite a few people enjoying these threads along with me.

Indeed, I greatly enjoy these discussions. I just wish I had more time to join in, but my time is very limited. Keep up the good work - maybe you'll actually convince me to rethink my position on things.

[Baruch]

You are a guy and you were married to a seminarian? Or do I have that wrong?

Yes ... all true saints are female ;-)  They have to put up with men.  She was a former Catholic Sister as well.  So she knew what she was talking about.  But she wasn't Whoopee Goldberg in Sister Act ;-))