Doing the wrong thing just because....

[billhilly]

Wow!  No wonder they're so against the gays in Oklahoma.

[SGOS]

we can control the weather?  summabitch...

not yet. but if emissions are curtailed we can bring equalibrium back to where the planet can self regulate. back to where there is a natural thermostat.

I'm not sure it's that easy.  From what I understand, the "natural thermostat" isn't really a thermostat, and is not at all like the thing in your house.  It doesn't work like a regulator that maintains an ideal temperature range best suited for man or mammals.  While the Earth's weather does run through long term climatic patterns, they are very long term, indeed, and they are more self perpetuating than the thing in your house that senses an unwanted condition and then activates a remedy.  Instead, when it senses warming or cooling, it often intensifies the situation, rather than act in a way that creates the opposite effect, at least over the long term.  And by long term, I'm talking about hundreds of millions of years.  Once a new pattern begins to establish itself, it becomes so self perpetuating, that it can require a cataclysmic event to reverse.  At least that's been the history of the Earth.  What lies ahead, I'll leave to the scientists to predict.  

What I have no faith in whatsoever are any of the political predictions, claims, or remedies for the coming years of Earth's climate effects on man's future.  Politics is not science, and it places no value on science or understanding, or for consequences beyond the immediate careers of the politicians that are doing the talking.  As always, science will be the most likely source of the most reliable information.  That's where I'll place my bet.  Unfortunately, I'll be too dead to collect my winnings. :-D

[surly74]

I'm not sure it's that easy.  From what I understand, the "natural thermostat" isn't really a thermostat, and is not at all like the thing in your house.  It doesn't work like a regulator that maintains an ideal temperature range best suited for man or mammals.  While the Earth's weather does run through long term climatic patterns, they are very long term, indeed, and they are more self perpetuating than the thing in your house that senses an unwanted condition and then activates a remedy.  Instead, when it senses warming or cooling, it often intensifies the situation, rather than act in a way that creates the opposite effect, at least over the long term.  And by long term, I'm talking about hundreds of millions of years.  Once a new pattern begins to establish itself, it becomes so self perpetuating, that it can require a cataclysmic event to reverse.  At least that's been the history of the Earth.  What lies ahead, I'll leave to the scientists to predict.  

What I have no faith in whatsoever are any of the political predictions, claims, or remedies for the coming years of Earth's climate effects on man's future.  Politics is not science, and it places no value on science or understanding, or for consequences beyond the immediate careers of the politicians that are doing the talking.  As always, science will be the most likely source of the most reliable information.  That's where I'll place my bet.  Unfortunately, I'll be too dead to collect my winnings. :-D

the thermostat analogy is apt. In fact I heard it in a lecture on ITunesU. Life in the Universe, an entire course from Ohio State. fascinating stuff. The entire course is about the search for life, what to look for, why our planet has life.

The natural greenhouse effect is a thermostat of sorts, a term actually used in the course. a quick search shows this is apt.  

this has nothing to do with being an ideal range for anything but life to exist and evolve. Venus is at one end of the spectrum, a greenhouse effect where the water evaporated thus the atmosphere having high carbon dioxide content. There isn't anything to absorb it, like our water and ice caps.

like i said, a cold earth runaway is recoverable because volcanos still dump carbon dioxide into the atmosphere which is absorbed by water vapour.

[Johan]

Because I asked them!

Ah that solves it then. No other possibility. They clearly purchased guns with absolutely no idea why they were doing it. Sounds plausible to me. They were mindless zombies and were powerless to their own actions. I can certainly see why they should be medicated.

Look goofball. What I said was that they reacted and yes that reaction was mindless. They bought a bunch of guns because FOX, Rush, and the rest of the Hitler youth told them that the socialist government was going to show up at their door and take their guns away.
If you think that these people actually took the time to THINK, way the virtues and cons of buying guns, then you are completely and utterly wrong. Lapierre starting ranting his bullshit and boom millions of guns were sold. Not just self defense weapons or hunting weapons, but mainly assualt rifles and high capacity magazines, AMMO like teflon tipped armor piercing Rhino rounds.
You making childish comments about it illustrates the problem here. I never suggested that people be medicated in the first place. That is YOUR exageration and trivilizing the issue. So grow up or shut up!

You know what? Not worth it. Pick your battles and all that. Good luck with your idiotic plans to 'medically help' those you don't agree with or understand there Jethro. Let me know how it works out for you.

[mykcob4]

first thing, show me one link from a credible weather service or scientist that says we are in a runaway green house effect because that's what it would be. That is irreversible. A runaway cold earth is technically recoverable but you are talking tens of millions of years. we aren't going in that direction. To get a runaway green house effect the ice sheets would have to be melted.

I can give you a credible source that we aren't there yet (multiple actually) but if we continue that is certainly a possibility. Runaway means the process is slanted so far that it cannot be contained and the natural environment cannot correct itself. The natural environment is self regulating when it comes to carbon dioxide and how much is in the environment. I haven't seen a consensus that says we are.

having said that, that is in the earth's best interest and society as a whole, which is different from individual best interest. when it comes to fossil fuels the two contradict. Have you given up your car? stopped using public transportation that burns FF's? I certainly haven't but am I acting against my best interest? the need to get to work? to pay my bills?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/ ... 8720120327
http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... rsible.htm
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=99888903
http://www.care2.com/causes/global-warm ... -body.html
http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2012/ ... logical-so
So is the American Meteorological society good enough for you?
I drive an Hyundai which is very good gas wise. I don't advocate completely ignoring the necessaties of life but being responsible is important. If I didn't have to have room for a wheel chair for my dad I would drive a SmartCar or something along that line.
What I am talking about acting against one's best interest with regard to Global Warming is voting for carbon credit laws and making polluters take measures to reduce their emmissions etc....! Ending landfills altogether etc...!

[mykcob4]

You making childish comments about it illustrates the problem here. I never suggested that people be medicated in the first place. That is YOUR exageration and trivilizing the issue. So grow up or shut up!

If we could medically address the psychological phenomenon we could actually cure some deep seat social ills.

don't throw stones...

Don't you DARE try and lecture me. Monitor yourself!

[mykcob4]

You know what? Not worth it. Pick your battles and all that. Good luck with your idiotic plans to 'medically help' those you don't agree with or understand there Jethro. Let me know how it works out for you.

[/quote][/quote]
Nice try with your condescending crap "Jethro" and all that. I didn't suggest drugging anyone. I wanted a conversation that might explain the general publics tend to accept propaganda and act not in their best interest based on that propaganda. YOU decided to exaggerate and be as smarmy as a little brat. That is your problem.

[SGOS]

Venus is at one end of the spectrum, a greenhouse effect where the water evaporated thus the atmosphere having high carbon dioxide content. There isn't anything to absorb it, like our water and ice caps.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story ... oxide.html

Global warming melts ice caps, and when they are gone, they can no longer reflect heat away from the planet, thereby increasing global warming.  It's one of the reasons your thermostat will cycle in reverse over the long term.

like i said, a cold earth runaway is recoverable because volcanos still dump carbon dioxide into the atmosphere which is absorbed by water

This is indeed suspected to be the exact cataclysmic event which ended a Precambrian ice age that once reached to the equator and may have lasted for millions of years, but the amount of volcanic activity that ended it was profound and on a scale much greater than normal volcanic activity.  But it wasn't part of a cycle.  It was an anomaly.

At any rate the problem is global warming, not cold earth runaway, at least at this time, and man is the major cause.  It's not like volcanoes add CO2 to the atmosphere, so what the hell, why not burn more fossil fuels since volcanic activity is already heating the planet?  The effects are cumulative and with man in the picture, unprecedented.  Vegetation and the accumulation of fossil fuels have one of the Earth's great carbon sinks, but man is reversing the containment of those sinks and now releasing the carbon back into the environment.

I'm not going to preach against man's effect on the environment, however.  I've pretty much given that up as a worthless cause.  Man is not going to do anything that will significantly slow the process he has set in motion.  I'm guessing it's too late, anyway.  Like someone said in another thread, "We are human.  We fuck things up.  That's what we do."

Having said that, I think anyone that says there isn't a problem caused by ourselves, has got his head buried in the sand.

[Johan]

You know what? Not worth it. Pick your battles and all that. Good luck with your idiotic plans to 'medically help' those you don't agree with or understand there Jethro. Let me know how it works out for you.

Nice try with your condescending crap "Jethro" and all that. I didn't suggest drugging anyone. I wanted a conversation that might explain the general publics tend to accept propaganda and act not in their best interest based on that propaganda. YOU decided to exaggerate and be as smarmy as a little brat. That is your problem.

Actually I used the word medicated, not drugged. And I used it in a previous post, not the one you've quoted here. Frankly, that is what I assumed you meant when you said you think certain people should be medically helped. I don't think its all that outrageous to see the phrase medically help and assume it means being medicated. I've known quite a few people who were being treated for various psychological ailments and many of them took medication as part of their treatment. Its pretty common really. Be that as it may, you got your panties in a bunch about my use of the word medicated so I deduced that medically help means something different to you than it does myself and I suspect most other people. So in the post you've quoted above, I used your own phrase. Funny how you seem to have ignored that.

Indeed you've ignored it as though it didn't happen when anyone can plainly see that it did in fact happen. In a debate situation, those are not really the actions of someone who is acting in their own best interest. Perhaps you could benefit from some sort of medical help.

Which is kind of my point. You think people whom you perceive to do certain things because of fox news or propaganda or whatever else are not acting in their own best interest need to be 'medically helped' whatever the fuck that means. What you don't seem to realize is just because I don't choose to tell you my exact reasons for doing something does not mean I have no reason for doing it. Just because you don't understand or agree with my choices or reasoning does not mean I need medical help. Quite frankly who the fuck are you to decide that? And no, I am not talking about guns here, that's only one example. I am talking about all the examples you've cited. It is a ludicrous idea. And its a very slippery slope that could easily bite you in your own ass if you were to actually put it into practice.

Hey buddy, you bought a very inefficient new car there. That's not the car I would've bought. And because you can't or won't explain your reasons for buying that particular car to me in a way that I can understand, I'm going to recommend you go see a doctor and get your poor broken brain fixed. Is that really where you want to end up? Really?

Hey I couldn't help but notice that you went with the cheesecake for desert when your waistline clearly shows that you really should skip desert all together. We're going to make you go see the doctor so you can get help with that. Oh what's that you say? Its your birthday? You only do that once a year? You're on a diet that allows a cheat day and this your cheat day? Yeah, sorry I just don't think that was in your best interest. Go see the doctor now like a good little monkey. Off you go.

It is an idiotic idea. On the other hand, minding your own business when your friends and neighbors are doing things they have every right to do is a good idea. I suggest you embrace that idea a bit more.

[surly74]

Don't you DARE try and lecture me. Monitor yourself!

seriously, you need to fucking grow up. You are the one calling people names, you are the one posting stuff and then whining becaues you get called out. You bring this on yourself but I have been dealing with you respectfully, as have other posters based on what you've written. i like this conversation, you've posted some good links and given me food for thought. I've ignored the "best interests" case as being young and passionate but will still discuss the climate change. I don't have all the answers.

Thing is, you and I are probably alot alike in that we look at things a certain way, things that make sense to us and have a hard time coming to terms that not all people think the same way. All the things you have said have a level or merit but you can't say they are in the best interests of anything because your best interests doesn't have to mesh with anyone else. I'm alot like that too.

[surly74]

This is indeed suspected to be the exact cataclysmic event which ended a Precambrian ice age that once reached to the equator and may have lasted for millions of years, but the amount of volcanic activity that ended it was profound and on a scale much greater than normal volcanic activity.  But it wasn't part of a cycle.  It was an anomaly.

At any rate the problem is global warming, not cold earth runaway, at least at this time, and man is the major cause.  It's not like volcanoes add CO2 to the atmosphere, so what the hell, why not burn more fossil fuels since volcanic activity is already heating the planet?  The effects are cumulative and with man in the picture, unprecedented.  Vegetation and the accumulation of fossil fuels have one of the Earth's great carbon sinks, but man is reversing the containment of those sinks and now releasing the carbon back into the environment.

I'm not going to preach against man's effect on the environment, however.  I've pretty much given that up as a worthless cause.  Man is not going to do anything that will significantly slow the process he has set in motion.  I'm guessing it's too late, anyway.  Like someone said in another thread, "We are human.  We fuck things up.  That's what we do."

Having said that, I think anyone that says there isn't a problem caused by ourselves, has got his head buried in the sand.

Volcanos do add CO2 to the atmosphere. They emit mostly H2O and CO2 plus H2S SO2 and CO but no oxygen. There is evidence of two frozen earth periods. The greenhouse effect makes the earth about 35 C warmer than if there wasn't an atmosphere.

There is the Life in the Universe course from OSU on it. A 49 part lecture series on what scientists look for when it comes to trying to find life in the universe. It's part of the astronomy course but has lectures on biology, geology, the history of the planets (including ours). Lecture 10, The Air we Breathe talks about the CO2 cycle a bit but lecture 12, Climate Regulation and Climate Change deals with...well, self explanatory.

//http://www.apple.com/ca/education/itunes-u/

From the notes:

[spoil:3kcnan6y]The primordial atmosphere had approx 1000 times more CO2 than it does now.
Where did it all go? Water rained out to form the oceans, CO2 dissolved in rain and ocean water, N2 stayed behind and is the dominant component.

Today, most of the CO2 is locked up in crustal rocks and dissolved in the oceans.[/spoil:3kcnan6y]

Also From the notes:

[spoil:3kcnan6y]The CO2 cycle regulates the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and is driven by plate tectonics.
The CO2 cycle and greenhouse effect act together like a thermostat to regulate global temps.
Ice Ages and periods of glaciation appear to be correlated with cycles of variation in the earth's orbit and tilt.
Very deep ice ages, called Snowball earth represent an interesting extreme of the climate change cycle.[/spoil:3kcnan6y]

Now, job security doesn't allow me to put more notes on or else i would but it's not a case of "i told you so" I'm just explaining what I've learned and where I've learned it however two points you've said don't jive with the lecutres.

1. volcanic activity that ended one snowball was an anamoly and not part of the natural cycle - A Snowball earth is caused by runaway cooling in the polar-ocean ice caps (positive feedback). Frozen oceans stop CO2 cycle but volcanic outgassing continues and CO2 builds up to approx 1000 current levels. A subsequent stron CO2 greenhouse effect melts the ice.

2. That volcanos don't add CO2 to the atmosphere - Yes they do. Venus is an example of what happens when the atmosphere becomes CO2 heavy. There is nothing to absorb it to balance the cycle. Venus wasn't caused by little green men driving to work but the proximity to the sun. A natual effect based on where it is. As the sun gets older and brighter earth will go through it too. Venus is an example of what the earth will become in 5 billion or so years. Mars might even be an example of what the eart was like 4 billion years ago.

The balance can be upset by influences acting from outside the regulation cycle such as, changes in the amount of sunlight because of changes in the sun's brightness, changes in the earth's orbit or tilt. Asteroid impact kicks up dust cooling the atmosphere,  man made global warming or climate change is human activity injecting massive amounts of CO2 outside of the normal CO2 cycle.

What I've come across in the argument against man made global warming that sound at least intelligent is that naturally, volcanos put out exponentionally more CO2 than man ever could so the process is still natually controlled. This wasn't the case in the lectures but man, over time can (and is) effecting the process. There is evidence that man is doing something, but we aren't runaway. Runaway is the process to end all life on earth. Publications are saying we are headed in that direction but use varying degrees to get attention.

If i've misread anything you've written virtually slap me as appropriate.

[mykcob4]

You know what? Not worth it. Pick your battles and all that. Good luck with your idiotic plans to 'medically help' those you don't agree with or understand there Jethro. Let me know how it works out for you.

Nice try with your condescending crap "Jethro" and all that. I didn't suggest drugging anyone. I wanted a conversation that might explain the general publics tend to accept propaganda and act not in their best interest based on that propaganda. YOU decided to exaggerate and be as smarmy as a little brat. That is your problem.

Actually I used the word medicated, not drugged. And I used it in a previous post, not the one you've quoted here. Frankly, that is what I assumed you meant when you said you think certain people should be medically helped. I don't think its all that outrageous to see the phrase medically help and assume it means being medicated. I've known quite a few people who were being treated for various psychological ailments and many of them took medication as part of their treatment. Its pretty common really. Be that as it may, you got your panties in a bunch about my use of the word medicated so I deduced that medically help means something different to you than it does myself and I suspect most other people. So in the post you've quoted above, I used your own phrase. Funny how you seem to have ignored that.

Indeed you've ignored it as though it didn't happen when anyone can plainly see that it did in fact happen. In a debate situation, those are not really the actions of someone who is acting in their own best interest. Perhaps you could benefit from some sort of medical help.

Which is kind of my point. You think people whom you perceive to do certain things because of fox news or propaganda or whatever else are not acting in their own best interest need to be 'medically helped' whatever the fuck that means. What you don't seem to realize is just because I don't choose to tell you my exact reasons for doing something does not mean I have no reason for doing it. Just because you don't understand or agree with my choices or reasoning does not mean I need medical help. Quite frankly who the fuck are you to decide that? And no, I am not talking about guns here, that's only one example. I am talking about all the examples you've cited. It is a ludicrous idea. And its a very slippery slope that could easily bite you in your own ass if you were to actually put it into practice.

Hey buddy, you bought a very inefficient new car there. That's not the car I would've bought. And because you can't or won't explain your reasons for buying that particular car to me in a way that I can understand, I'm going to recommend you go see a doctor and get your poor broken brain fixed. Is that really where you want to end up? Really?

Hey I couldn't help but notice that you went with the cheesecake for desert when your waistline clearly shows that you really should skip desert all together. We're going to make you go see the doctor so you can get help with that. Oh what's that you say? Its your birthday? You only do that once a year? You're on a diet that allows a cheat day and this your cheat day? Yeah, sorry I just don't think that was in your best interest. Go see the doctor now like a good little monkey. Off you go.

It is an idiotic idea. On the other hand, minding your own business when your friends and neighbors are doing things they have every right to do is a good idea. I suggest you embrace that idea a bit more.

Again with the condescending crap.  The fact is you keep avoiding the issue and choose to go into insults. So as for you there is no reasonable discussion. I feel pitty for people like you who lack the ability to actually deal with reality. My car is very efficient and gets great gas milage. The scenerios that you put forth are not realistic and in no way reflect what I am talking about. In fact there HAS been some study about the subject I am refering. Mass hysteria is a codition in which a mass of people don't think but react against their own interest because of propaganda. There is also the Stockholm Syndrom where by kidnap victims actually act against their own interest. So quit trying belittle the real issue here. Quit interjecting childish scenerios that don't even relate to the issue. It's like you were trained by FOX NOISE.

[mykcob4]

Don't you DARE try and lecture me. Monitor yourself!

seriously, you need to fucking grow up. You are the one calling people names, you are the one posting stuff and then whining becaues you get called out. You bring this on yourself but I have been dealing with you respectfully, as have other posters based on what you've written. i like this conversation, you've posted some good links and given me food for thought. I've ignored the "best interests" case as being young and passionate but will still discuss the climate change. I don't have all the answers.

Thing is, you and I are probably alot alike in that we look at things a certain way, things that make sense to us and have a hard time coming to terms that not all people think the same way. All the things you have said have a level or merit but you can't say they are in the best interests of anything because your best interests doesn't have to mesh with anyone else. I'm alot like that too.

No goofball I didn't start the condescending crap you did, so don't even try that crap on me. You decided that YOU would lecture me as if you have some sort of authority to do so, you don't so don't try.
That being said, this thread isn't about me or what I think is in the best interest of people. It's about the facts of what people react to no matter what side of the ideological aisle they sit on. It's about how the masses are motivated by propaganda and act without really thinking. 1930s Germany, 2001 United States, and many many other examples of just buying into contrived false messeges and on masss acting against what is logical and right.

[Plu]

You're being a bit of an asshole there, mykcob. I'm not even in this discussion and it's easily visible to me as well. Everyone is trying to be nice, and you're just being a dick to everyone while constantly whining about how people aren't treating you nicely enough.

[Sal1981]

Don't you DARE try and lecture me. Monitor yourself!

seriously, you need to fucking grow up. You are the one calling people names, you are the one posting stuff and then whining becaues you get called out. You bring this on yourself but I have been dealing with you respectfully, as have other posters based on what you've written. i like this conversation, you've posted some good links and given me food for thought. I've ignored the "best interests" case as being young and passionate but will still discuss the climate change. I don't have all the answers.

Thing is, you and I are probably alot alike in that we look at things a certain way, things that make sense to us and have a hard time coming to terms that not all people think the same way. All the things you have said have a level or merit but you can't say they are in the best interests of anything because your best interests doesn't have to mesh with anyone else. I'm alot like that too.

No goofball I didn't start the condescending crap you did, so don't even try that crap on me. You decided that YOU would lecture me as if you have some sort of authority to do so, you don't so don't try.
That being said, this thread isn't about me or what I think is in the best interest of people. It's about the facts of what people react to no matter what side of the ideological aisle they sit on. It's about how the masses are motivated by propaganda and act without really thinking. 1930s Germany, 2001 United States, and many many other examples of just buying into contrived false messeges and on masss acting against what is logical and right.

The irony is strong in this one.