Thoughts on the Existence of the Universe

[reasonist]

Who told you that? The Vikings had slaves. The Barbarians had slaves. The Romans had slaves. The Greeks had slaves. The Egyptians had slaves. None of them looked to the Bible for inspiration. The South abused the teachings of the Bible to suit their own needs. The Bible clearly stated that slaves were not to be abused  and if they were hurt, they were to be freed. The New Testament actually builds the case for a Christian servant and a Christian master as being equals. And it seems that such a thought would have been appalling to many southern slave owners but not to someone reading Darwin's book.

Most 19th century promoters of evolution believed that race was an acceptable illustration of evolution. I know of no 19th century evolutionist who theorized that whites and blacks were co-equal intellectually. However, many Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians accepted Blacks as equals and wasted no time trying to share the Gospel with the down trodden brothers and sisters.

Slavery is as old as historical records can tell us, very true. However, humanity never had a doctrine, a book that  endorsed slavery and that was used to justify it. We were a brutal brood in ancient times (actually to this day) but the so called civilized world ended slavery when the Puretan Protestants, the forefathers of the American Fundamentalists, began to ship boatloads of Africans to North America. Because the bible says so.
And since Christianity is a total plagiarization from Egyptian, Greek and Roman myths and fables, you see the commonalities with slavery also.

Regarding 19th century philosophers and evolutionists, I know of no reputable philosopher who espoused something like the Bell curve and such. Maybe you can enlighten us and give specifics.
The opposite can be proven easily. We know of no black priest, imam, pope, or lama. The Mormons thought that blacks are a cursed sub-human species and only changed their mind after receiving a 'revelation' in 1965 I believe.

[stromboli]

The U. S. Civil War was fought over slavery by 95% white people that all spoke the same language, all had European ancestry and all worshiped the same god.

The South justified their slavery from the bible. Read the 10 commandments. Slavery and rape are not mentioned. Keeping slaves was permitted and women were considered property, so rape was a property crime and justifiable under circumstances. That is your religion. Go out and rape a woman. By biblical law you can pay an agreed upon bride price and keep her. There are still laws on the books in Bible Belt states that give a rapist legal say in what happens to the child if the woman gets pregnant. Sound moral to you?

The North found justification in their bible and the South in theirs. Same thing is happening today, with some differences. Islam is finding justification in their work of fiction the Koran, the Christians and Israelis from their holy books, the Talmud and the Bible.

It ain't that hard. Just read something besides the apologetic mumbo jumbo and find the truth. Most of the smart people-scientists- are atheists. Figure it out.

[Fickle]

If something exists, there must also exist that which is necessary for that thing to exist. As we have already agreed, the universe - the collection of beings in space and time - exists. Therefore, there must exist what it takes for the universe to exist. Moreover, what it takes for the universe to exist cannot exist within the universe itself or be bounded by space and time. Therefore, what it takes for the universe to exist must transcend both space and time.

So, given that the universe exists, we know that it had a cause which transcends both space and time.
And this transcendent cause is what we call "God".

An amoeba in the middle of my pond might draw similar conclusions. It can see no beginning nor end thus my pond must have always been. Or it may believe my pond cannot always be therefore it must have been created by imaginary beings. Yes my little amoeba I am your God and my word is your gospel and if you do not obey my word thou shalt drain thy holy pond and smite thee.

You are caught in a logical fallacy know as false cause, you presumed that a real or perceived relationship between things means that one is the cause of the other. At which point we might ask the question... does everything you cannot fully understand require the existence of a god?. Is it not enough to understand that we do not fully understand everything?.

I use a different premise, there is infinitely more that I do not know than I know. You see your logic always breaks down because most people are thinking like the amoeba in my pond always looking outward at things they cannot seem to understand. Most cannot conceive the alternate perspective of looking inward at themselves from another more neutral perspective. However if most people had the capacity to look inward they might find most all of my amoeba are quite insane living in an imaginary world they have created for themselves which bears no resemblance to my reality.

[widdershins]

There is practical science, such as medical research and animal/plant breeding.  Finding another larger T-Rex, never healed anyone. Yes, it is as interesting, but so is finding an older copy of the Bible. Atheists are no more honest or dishonest than anyone else. Though if one depends on evolution for his/her livelihood, they may hold to what they have been taught in order to pass and ultimately get a job at an institution that embraces only secular reasoning. Most hospitals, on the other hand, have long realized the power of spiritual healing. And there has been research to suggest it is very real.

There are so many problems with those statements.  Nobody "depends on evolution" for their livelihood.  And even if they did, almost all scientists in the world accept evolution, INCLUDING religious scientists, of which there are many.  Evolution is not an "atheist" thing.  In fact, Charles Darwin himself had originally intended to become a clergyman.  This false impression that only atheists accept evolution is as ridiculous as it is false.

Next, science is by its very nature "secular".  Once you give a supernatural explanation for something all understanding of it stops at that point.  If "God did it" is your answer there's no reason to look further because we can't understand God.

And finally, you are confusing "spiritual healing" with having a "positive attitude".  It is well established science that your attitude affects your health.  Many hospitals are channeling this into feel-good "spiritual healing".  But only the ill-informed believe it involves magical powers.  If you believe Superman can help you and the people at the hospital help you call Superman you are going to "feel" as if you're getting help.  Your attitude is going to be improved and there's a good chance your condition will improve.  The "spiritual" part is just the attitude changer that works for the vast majority of Americans, nothing more.  There is nothing magical or mystical about it.

Finally, do you think Albert Einstein is the most famous scientist of all time because he said, "Yep.  That other guy was right.  I agree with him completely."?  He's an icon because he did not simply agree with the theories of the time.  The same is true for Stephen Hawking.  Neil Tyson had to kill a planet to get recognized.  Do you REALLY think scientists advance their career by saying, "I see nothing wrong here."?  For the scientist who killed evolution immortality would be the reward.  It would mean fame and riches beyond their wildest dreams.  For the scientists who accept it, nothing.  There is PLENTY of incentive to buck evolution.  So why don't they?  Because it's rock solid, being THE most heavily tested and contested scientific theory of all time.  People have been trying to kill it for a century and a half and they can't because it's a reality.

[reasonist]

That's why the scientific method is the only path to the truth. It is competitive. If a new 'theory' (I hate that word in the scientific discourse) is published, hundreds of scientists try to disprove it to make a name. And if they grudgingly admit that a theory is proven, you can be assured that is has moved into the realm of fact. Religion has no such mechanism. There is only one book, you have all the answers, no further inquiry necessary. That's the most sinister stance one can have. We walked on the moon not because of prayer but because of human ingenuity and science. We can transplant hearts not because there is a manual in the good book but because man has progressed despite religious monkey wrenches for the past 2 millennia.

[doorknob]

I believe salvation comes by God through Christ. What exactly do you believe in --- where "science" lacks answers. The Bible is clearly where Atheists muster their attacks. They don't seem to waste their time disproving other religions.

take your head out of your ass. Atheist debunk other religions all the time. If it seems we focus more on Christianity it's because we live among mostly Christians. If some one was shouting on street corners about fairies all the time you'd start to get tired of it and point out why that belief is highly flawed too.

[stromboli]

take your head out of your ass. Atheist debunk other religions all the time. If it seems we focus more on Christianity it's because we live among mostly Christians. If some one was shouting on street corners about fairies all the time you'd start to get tired of it and point out why that belief is highly flawed too.

And thereby hangs a meme.....



And another one for good measure......




I love the internet! 

[doorknob]

Christ perfectly fulfilled God's LAW. If one trusts in Christ, one is found righteous in God's sight because of what Christ accomplished and finished. How many babies are aborted yearly? Do you blame God or man?

don't think every one here supports abortion.

[stromboli]

And don't neglect to mention that every year more babies are lost to natural miscarriage than abortion.

[Fickle]

Littledipper

Who told you that? The Vikings had slaves. The Barbarians had slaves. The Romans had slaves. The Greeks had slaves. The Egyptians had slaves. None of them looked to the Bible for inspiration. The South abused the teachings of the Bible to suit their own needs. The Bible clearly stated that slaves were not to be abused  and if they were hurt, they were to be freed. The New Testament actually builds the case for a Christian servant and a Christian master as being equals.

Many people did a great deal of crazy shit in the past, key word...past, however this in no way implies we should do the same. I mean if your grandfather always shit in the woods does this mean you should?. Well no because that's just silly and yet here you are jumping down the rabbit hole because of what someone else supposedly wrote almost one thousand years ago.

However I think you got one thing right... you intend to be the master don't you?. This is quite normal and generally a sign of personality disorders such as narcissism ie. self-centeredness arising from the failure to distinguish one's self from others. You want to be special don't you?, to separate yourself from others?, to find some grand enlightenment and rise above the ignorant hordes.

Me I'm just a another guy, nothing special and I'm fine with that because for me it is enough to just be here is this quite awesome place in time looking for my own answers. Stop following my friend because at the end of this journey you will find a most unexpected conclusion. Your heart will stop beating and you will look up and think... Oh fuck, really?, I mean really? and you will simply cease to exist. I have seen death, stared it in the face on many occasions and I can assure you it is quite natural. Grow a set of balls and deal with it...our days are numbered, do something, live your life on your terms not others.

[josephpalazzo]

So atheists actually believe yeast or bacteria pray? And here I didn't think it was desirable to take yeast or bacteria into a hospital much less attempt to heal them...

It seems you have no reading skills. The experiment -  people are praying for sick people, and the result is that the sick people get better. You substitute the sick people with yeast or bacteria, redo the experiment, that is people are now praying not for sick people but for the yeast or the bacteria, and the result is that the yeast or the bacteria does better. UNDERSTAND????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????//

[LittleNipper]

It seems you have no reading skills. The experiment -  people are praying for sick people, and the result is that the sick people get better. You substitute the sick people with yeast or bacteria, redo the experiment, that is people are now praying not for sick people but for the yeast or the bacteria, and the result is that the yeast or the bacteria does better. UNDERSTAND????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????//

If that is the case, then the reality is that GOD is LORD of all ---- even you. If there is no God then prayer could have no effect.

[LittleNipper]

Slavery is as old as historical records can tell us, very true. However, humanity never had a doctrine, a book that  endorsed slavery and that was used to justify it. We were a brutal brood in ancient times (actually to this day) but the so called civilized world ended slavery when the Puretan Protestants, the forefathers of the American Fundamentalists, began to ship boatloads of Africans to North America. Because the bible says so.
And since Christianity is a total plagiarization from Egyptian, Greek and Roman myths and fables, you see the commonalities with slavery also.

Regarding 19th century philosophers and evolutionists, I know of no reputable philosopher who espoused something like the Bell curve and such. Maybe you can enlighten us and give specifics.
The opposite can be proven easily. We know of no black priest, imam, pope, or lama. The Mormons thought that blacks are a cursed sub-human species and only changed their mind after receiving a 'revelation' in 1965 I believe.

Mormons believe that they will be Gods themselves someday and that God was once a mortal man who became GOD. The Bible does not support any of this.

[reasonist]

Mormons believe that they will be Gods themselves someday and that God was once a mortal man who became GOD. The Bible does not support any of this.

Mormonism is just an offshoot of Judaism and Christianity as well. Joseph Smith used  much of the Torah and the NT for his imaginative work. Anti semitism and racism is rampant in the bible, so for him it was politically expedient to incorporate many of the niceties into the book of mormon.
What strikes me as odd with believers like you is the cognitive dissonance displayed. You drive cars, use computers, go to the doctor when something ails them, love the convenience of electricity and use everything modern technology and science has to offer. But when it comes to questions regarding how the universe and it's natural laws work, science is completely ignored or rejected.
Faith, or believe without evidence, is not a valid cognitive function to begin with and is not applied anywhere else in life. The fact that you believe in one book of fiction that should have been forgotten with the invention of the microscope and the telescope, makes you miss out on so much wonderful knowledge. It is cheapening and parochial to dismiss science as if the jury is still out. You are giving up the only thing that makes us higher primates: the faculty of reason! Faith is nothing but the surrender of the mind and superstitious wish thinking.

[Hakurei Reimu]

If that is the case, then the reality is that GOD is LORD of all ---- even you. If there is no God then prayer could have no effect.

It did have no effect. See, most people do better after getting sick, prayer or no prayer. Most illnesses are self-limiting. And bacteria and yeast would not be the survivalist powerhouses they actually are if they depended on people's prayers to grow.