Moderates?

[Jack89]

Yes.

Cool. Good troops.

[josephpalazzo]

so we are back to the problem of what to call those people, who don't really believe in real islam but still wants to call themselves muslims.

May I suggest "cultural" Muslim, like there are "cultural" Christians who basically celebrate the major Christian feasts but don't buy much into the religion. Many of them don't even go to church on Sunday as it is required by the religion.

[CloneKai]

May I suggest "cultural" Muslim, like there are "cultural" Christians who basically celebrate the major Christian feasts but don't buy much into the religion. Many of them don't even go to church on Sunday as it is required by the religion.

but they do buy into the religion. they just don't think mo was that violent. or stoning is ok or amputation. or even burqa.
they think islam is peaceful enough.
they will always consider themselves muslims.

[CloneKai]

Actually, now you asking, I did live in the Middle East from 1956 to 1967. Did speak good hebrew and some Arabic.
But that was a long time ago. Forgot almost all of it. Now just some German, English and fluent moron. ;)

I also did for 2.5 years in the  צ×'א while there.

שלום

that might explain your love for islam

[Aletheia]

but they do buy into the religion. they just don't think mo was that violent. or stoning is ok or amputation. or even burqa.
they think islam is peaceful enough.
they will always consider themselves muslims.

Then it would be best to encourage them. It would be an Islam Reformation. A person can believe any given religion, so long as they do not infringe of the rights of others as determined through secular morality. If Islam cannot be eradicated, then "tamed" would be the next best thing.

[josephpalazzo]

but they do buy into the religion. they just don't think mo was that violent. or stoning is ok or amputation. or even burqa.
they think islam is peaceful enough.
they will always consider themselves muslims.

Many Christians basically do the same - they ignore the hundreds of citations that deal with violence in the bible, and just consider those passages that speak of peace, love and forgiving. They basically compartmentalize to avoid cognitive dissonance.

[CloneKai]

Many Christians basically do the same - they ignore the hundreds of citations that deal with violence in the bible, and just consider those passages that speak of peace, love and forgiving. They basically compartmentalize to avoid cognitive dissonance.

that is where the term moderate muslims comes from.
moderate muslims don't call themselves moderate muslims, just muslims and they call isis type things, western agents

[Baruch]

Yes you can.  People do it all the time, and rightly so.  If my group has values that hold that free speech, freedom of religion, equal treatment of men and women as the standard, and your group doesn't, I can certainly declare your group wrong in that regard.  If your group violates my groups values by throwing a gay man off of a building for being gay, I can and will declare your group to be in the wrong.  It may be relative, but there it is.

Exactly, Fatah doesn't like it when Hamas does that to Fatah members/officers.  But it wasn't for being gay, and it was in Gaza, not San Francisco.  But different group dynamics is why wars occur ... or is the excuse ... when more materialistic goals are true.

CloneKai  - quoting error ... it is Pr126 who lived in the Middle East, and served in the Israeli army.  Maybe his parents were cultural Jewish, and migrated there from the USSR?  Just guessing.  But I have never been to Israel, and I have only been to W Turkey, no place else in the Near East.  This certainly does color his anti-Islam views ... legitimately.  I could hardly expect a Jewish person to be pro-German for example.  And certainly very few Israelis are not anti-Arab and anti-Islam.  I hope my anti-Likud view of Israel isn't too offensive, but I can't help myself.

[CloneKai]

Then it would be best to encourage them. It would be an Islam Reformation. A person can believe any given religion, so long as they do not infringe of the rights of others as determined through secular morality. If Islam cannot be eradicated, then "tamed" would be the next best thing.

technically they already believe in this. if i was to tell my parents that i am not muslim anymore, they won't kill me, just try to send me to mosques or sh!t like that. Eventually they will give up. one sibling already knows.
Pakistan doesn't follow sharia law, there is no amputation, no stoning.
but people do believe sharia law will make everything better. and western are evil and such.
the way i see, it is because, for my country, we are extremely isolated. everyone is muslim, everyone believe in sharia. no western people walking around, no secular thoughts running around.
so gays are disgusting and spread aids, its the truth. and nobody is gonna challenge it there. (lesbian can be hot though)
same thing for separation of church and state. its in islam so they must always be joined at the hips.

i remember my dad telling me how turkey was sucking up to west, they even legalized prostitution. the way he was staring at me, he might as well has said that they legalized stoning. 

till muslims remain isolated and in piss poor conditions, isis like people will live one. muslims have no examples to follow, like Christians have with west saying they have jewdo-christain values or whatever you call um.

[CloneKai]

Exactly, Fatah doesn't like it when Hamas does that to Fatah members/officers.  But it wasn't for being gay, and it was in Gaza, not San Francisco.  But different group dynamics is why wars occur ... or is the excuse ... when more materialistic goals are true.

CloneKai  - quoting error ... it is Pr126 who lived in the Middle East, and served in the Israeli army.  Maybe his parents were cultural Jewish, and migrated there from the USSR?  Just guessing.  But I have never been to Israel, and I have only been to W Turkey, no place else in the Near East.  This certainly does color his anti-Islam views ... legitimately.  I could hardly expect a Jewish person to be pro-German for example.  And certainly very few Israelis are not anti-Arab and anti-Islam.  I hope my anti-Likud view of Israel isn't too offensive, but I can't help myself.

lol  fixed
my apologize, i didn't check how it was showing the quote.
and finally, i understood what you said completely. see we can do this, old man 

[pr126]

I don't believe in Karma.
But, Europe killed off 6 million Jews, and they have replaced them with 60 million Muslims.
I don't think for one moment that this will benefit Europe in any way in the future.

No, it is not schadenfreude. Just stating facts.

[Baruch]

I don't believe in Karma.
But, Europe killed off 6 million Jews, and they have replaced them with 60 million Muslims.
I don't think for one moment that this will benefit Europe in any way in the future.

No, it is not schadenfreude. Just stating facts.

If you keep slaves, you need to keep them in ghettos for 2000 years, and not let them mix with their betters.  Like in the Old South ... they stay in the fields or the cabins, you don't invite them up to the Big House.  It was the mixing that caused the Gentiles to freak out.  As long as Jews stayed in ghettos, they were tolerable.  Blame Napoleon, he freed the European Jews.  So yes, importing lots of Turks etc ... like the US importing lots of Mexicans ... there could be downside to this.  Even though I am pro-Mexican and pro-American both ... because I consider Mexico part of America.  The Anglo-Saxons can kiss my ass.

[Aletheia]

technically they already believe in this. if i was to tell my parents that i am not muslim anymore, they won't kill me, just try to send me to mosques or sh!t like that. Eventually they will give up. one sibling already knows.
Pakistan doesn't follow sharia law, there is no amputation, no stoning.
but people do believe sharia law will make everything better. and western are evil and such.
the way i see, it is because, for my country, we are extremely isolated. everyone is muslim, everyone believe in sharia. no western people walking around, no secular thoughts running around.
so gays are disgusting and spread aids, its the truth. and nobody is gonna challenge it there. (lesbian can be hot though)
same thing for separation of church and state. its in islam so they must always be joined at the hips.

i remember my dad telling me how turkey was sucking up to west, they even legalized prostitution. the way he was staring at me, he might as well has said that they legalized stoning. 

till muslims remain isolated and in piss poor conditions, isis like people will live one. muslims have no examples to follow, like Christians have with west saying the have jewdo-christain values or whatever you call um.

Ah yes. In the U.S. we have similar:

Moderate Christians

If Christian parents find out their children do not want to be Christian anymore, they won't kill them, just try to send them to church. Eventually they will give up.

The U.S. doesn't follow Biblical law, there is no stoning, and no slavery.
Christians here do believe that Biblical law would make everything better and the middle east is evil and such.

This is because Christians in the U.S. have been the majority for a long time. The majority are Christian, and the majority believe Biblical laws is best. They try their best to isolate themselves from non-Christians. Many have never seen a Middle Eastern person. They ignore secular thought.

So, gays are regarded as disgusting and spread AIDS. For them, it is the truth and they won't listen to anyone who challenges that.

Same thing for separation of church and state. The Christian God is supreme and therefore must be the law of the land.

Until Christians stop isolating themselves, then people like the Westboro Baptist Church and "God-Fearing" Politicians will live on.

-----------------------------

You are not alone, but moderate Islam or moderate Christianity is a start, and much better than the violent versions of these religions. That is why a secular society is needed. It allows people with different beliefs to interact in a civilized manner. The children in such societies grow up being aware they are not alone and have interaction with people who are different from them. This counters any of the rumours they may have heard from their community because they can go out and meet different people and find out for themselves what those people are like. It helps people to understand the humanity of other people and prevents us from dehumanizing others.

[CloneKai]

Ah yes. In the U.S. we have similar:

Moderate Christians

If Christian parents find out their children do not want to be Christian anymore, they won't kill them, just try to send them to church. Eventually they will give up.

The U.S. doesn't follow Biblical law, there is no stoning, and no slavery.
Christians here do believe that Biblical law would make everything better and the middle east is evil and such.

This is because Christians in the U.S. have been the majority for a long time. The majority are Christian, and the majority believe Biblical laws is best. They try their best to isolate themselves from non-Christians. Many have never seen a Middle Eastern person. They ignore secular thought.

So, gays are regarded as disgusting and spread AIDS. For them, it is the truth and they won't listen to anyone who challenges that.

Same thing for separation of church and state. The Christian God is supreme and therefore must be the law of the land.

Until Christians stop isolating themselves, then people like the Westboro Baptist Church and "God-Fearing" Politicians will live on.

-----------------------------

You are not alone, but moderate Islam or moderate Christianity is a start, and much better than the violent versions of these religions. That is why a secular society is needed. It allows people with different beliefs to interact in a civilized manner. The children in such societies grow up being aware they are not alone and have interaction with people who are different from them. This counters any of the rumours they may have heard from their community because they can go out and meet different people and find out for themselves what those people are like. It helps people to understand the humanity of other people and prevents us from dehumanizing others.

but there is a huge difference between USA and Pakistan.
people from every corner of the world goes to USA, christain will try but eventually they see things on newspaper, on tv or real life which they will never want to.
Pakistan, well its in "are you fucking insane" tourist spot. no one goes there, normally. and then the censorship is there too.
USA can progress in that direction, Pakistan doesn't have to. law and order is better in USA as compared to Pakistan.
Getting out of community in Pakistan is very difficult, going all the way to west, well you have to be a very lucky bastard. USA not that much.

[Baruch]

My ancestors, both Jew and Gentile, had to get out of Europe for the same reason.  Think of Europe as a very big version of Pakistan ... lots of different tribes and languages, but mostly the same religion.