Merged Topic - Historical Reliability of the Gospels

[Mike Cl]

Phew! Why didn't I think of that? LOL You KNOW that there is a god and he is a trinity, including a ghost.
I was asking you for a (ONE) word that could not have been written by mortals like you and I. No dice?????

Maybe if you get your head out of your arse, you will understand the question.

I'm afraid it is so far up that he does not really need blinders--the colon wall are his blinders.  It is simply round and round we go--with no stop in sight.

[Randy Carson]

I see that you do understand the sane rules of the game.  But you don't play by them.  You say your god exists.  You say Jesus is the son of god.  Yet you feel you don't have to prove it.  It is simply self evident to you.  As you said--all you have is an opinion.  I guess you feel that badgering a person, nagging them, hounding them gets them (or at least some of them) to believe as you do.  If you say it enough then it has to be true.  Typical of your ilk.  Doesn't work on me; once I get the sense that you are simply full of hot air and opinion, I simply become more ensconced in my position.

Well, clearly, this is untrue. I have come to this forum with the express purpose of presenting a strong case for Christianity. I have started several threads which provide the necessary foundation for proceeding with an investigation of the claims of Jesus and the Church.

My OPINION is that the case is strong.

As far as nothing being supernatural, this is how it works.  All that I can see, touch, feel, smell, experience is based in nature.  The entire universe is natural.  In order for something to be supernatural, it has to be not of nature.  The is nothing that is not of nature. 

And what is your proof for that last sentence, Mike?

Yes, people have claimed that there is the spiritual realm and that they have had spiritual experiences.  Good for them.  But those are all personal happenings, and they cannot reproduce it.  And the skeptical Randy will pay you a million dollars if you can prove there is anything supernatural in this universe.

If that could be proved empirically, who wouldn't be willing to pay for that information?

[Randy Carson]

Yes Randy, you should know.  You live in a perpetual corner always running out the same old tired bromides, same old opinions foisted on us as facts---time and again as though saying it enough somehow validates your thoughts.  Yes, it is a pity.   

[Randy Carson]

I don't believe there was any such place as Nazasreth - it was a misunderstanding of the term 'nazarite', which had nothing to do with any place:

Thanks. I wrote "Jesus of Nazareth" instead of just "Jesus" to see if anyone would take the bait. It was too easy.

Pavlovian, really.

[Randy Carson]

Science doesn't deal with magic and miracles. Those things are mysteriously invisible to science. Yet you continue to put the burden of proof on others to show that your assumptions are NOT true. Skepticism is the default position, not belief.

Easy. They're not facts. Done. Neither your religion or Islam have any facts. You have beliefs.

No, Blackleaf. These are facts that are acknowledged by real scholars who hold a broad spectrum of beliefs.

But let me illustrate why only the ignorant deny these five facts.

The Christian Church: why does it exist?

[Randy Carson]

<stupid meme removed>

Ah...so we have reached that stage in your argumentation. I had hoped you might do better.

[Randy Carson]

The evidence we give you for this is probably already within your reach,  maybe even sitting in your lap right this minute. Your hOlY biBLe and its many inconsistencies is what we often use as our evidence.

The Bible (and I'd like to focus on the NT since it is smaller, younger and more easy to review and manage) does contain some inconsistencies. So what?

Eyewitness testimony OFTEN contains inconsistencies. For example, the witnesses to the Michael Brown shooting in Missouri disagreed as to whether he was running toward or away from the police officer who shot him. Yet no one denied that he was dead.

There may be some inconsistencies in the gospels, but none of them denied that Jesus was raised from the dead. Their testimony is remarkably consistent.

I have one next to my bed as well - because of people like you. Cover to cover it's a tough read. If i were starting a religion today,  and the bible was my marketing material to woo a potential following,  I'd most likely be locked up.

That might be true. Good thing God has better timing than you.

[Randy Carson]

This is why in the US, Christianity is simplified ... for the rubes.  Down to WWJD.

Hey, as a Catholic (and former Protestant), I could not agree more.

It's also why Mohammed simplified Christianity and Judaism when he invented Islam.

[Randy Carson]

And your efforts to promote their credibility are tainted by a severe bias that you obviously don't notice.

Are you referring to their bias? Or to mine? Both may exist, but we would deal with them differently.

Please advise.

[Randy Carson]

Phew! Why didn't I think of that? LOL You KNOW that there is a god and he is a trinity, including a ghost.
I was asking you for a (ONE) word that could not have been written by mortals like you and I. No dice?????

Maybe if you get your head out of your arse, you will understand the question.

Any word used by humans could obviously be written by humans.

I, on the other hand, have demonstrated two TYPES of things that could not be reasonably attributed to simpletons:

1. Beautiful prose.
2. Theological mystery.

Maybe if you think a little deeper, you will understand my answers.

[drunkenshoe]

I don't think Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter are good examples. You guys keep forgetting that these people actually, really believe that these stories happened in 'reality' while both sides agree former examples are fiction. There is no suitable example from their point of view, because it is not a fantasy for them. 


OK, this could get things far worse, but let's try:

Brothers Karamazov is accurate. The family never existed, but it's accurate. Alyosha is a nice guy. Fyodor is a douchebag. A fucking a parasite. I can attest to that.

Crime and Punishment is accurate. Raskolnikov is a sad, desperate man, dealing with real problems. I always liked him. I can describe him to you and I have even seen people who looks just like him.

Gregor Samsa is still sleeping on that bed. There are billions of Gregor Samsas in the world, many of them sleeping in that bed right now. They will never get transformed into a bug, but what they are feeling is very accurate.

Zeze is actually a very clever, hyperactive boy. He gets beaten a lot. He really cut his feet deep with that piece of glass and read the word 'pharmacy' correctly the first time. There are many Zezes in Rio and they are being beaten up badly everyday.

[Mike Cl]

I don't think Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter are good examples. You guys keep forgetting that these people actually, really believe that these stories happened in 'reality' while both sides agree former examples are fiction. There is no suitable example from their point of view, because it is not a fantasy for them. 


OK, this could get things far worse, but let's try:

Brothers Karamazov is accurate. The family never existed, but it's accurate. Alyosha is a nice guy. Fyodor is a douchebag. A fucking a parasite. I can attest to that.

Crime and Punishment is accurate. Raskolnikov is a sad, desperate man, dealing with real problems. I always liked him. I can describe him to you and I have even seen people who looks just like him.

Gregor Samsa is still sleeping on that bed. There are billions of Gregor Samsas in the world, many of them sleeping in that bed right now. They will never get transformed into a bug, but what they are feeling is very accurate.

Zeze is actually a very clever, hyperactive boy. He gets beaten a lot. He really cut his feet deep with that piece of glass and read the word 'pharmacy' correctly the first time. There are many Zezes in Rio and they are being beaten up badly everyday.

Your examples are good.  The results will be the same.  As you fully realize, theists don't think, they believe.  So, to suggest they use some critical thinking would roll off them like water off a ducks back.  Many would not even know what you are talking about, since they believe they already are thinking critically; they conflate thinking with believing.  And when they really need to turn from critical thinking they use their faith.  A Randy will never lose his faith--unless something just shakes him to his core and he can't help but notice that faith means nothing.  And who knows what that something would be; and it doesn't happen very often.  Randy could carry on like this forever and nothing we say will even register with him that he is wrong about anything or even a small detail is incorrect.  He is the Catholic Church's dream lay person--he just prays and pays and tries to suck in more and more paying customers. 

[drunkenshoe]

Christian innumeracy ;-)  Also in Kabbalah we know that G-d has 10 parts, as is shown by my ten fingers/thumbs.  That trumps St Patrick with the shamrock.

Nothing trumps St Pat... It's da BEEER!

[Unbeliever]

Thanks. I wrote "Jesus of Nazareth" instead of just "Jesus" to see if anyone would take the bait. It was too easy.

Pavlovian, really.

OK, I'll bite:

If there was no Nazareth, how could there be such a person as Jesus of Nazareth?

There were certainly many people with the name Jesus in those days, Josephus records several, I think.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The Christian Church: why does it exist?

People are really good at thinking up scams.