Merged Topic - Historical Reliability of the Gospels

[SGOS]

I'll never think like you or believe like you.  The probability of that happening is somewhere under 1%, closer to zero than to one.

I wonder how many converts have said that at one point or another in the course of human history?

Probably many on both sides of the issue, although I doubt that the overall frequency is that high, because people that have given it much thought have pretty much figured themselves out.  I spent many years hanging on to my slowly diminishing Christianity.  I was in my 50s when I finally admitted to myself that I was an atheist, and had been long before I came to terms with it.

Before that I was continually seeking information that would prove there was a god, but to no avail.  I studied philosophy of religion, read the attempts at proofs from the philosophical heavy weights, learned about logic, and studied the sciences.  So far, you have offered nothing that compares, not even with likes of your cut and pastes.

I only looked for one thing, proof and subsequent knowledge of a god.  All of your efforts at proving the reality of even an ordinary man named Jesus were and still are trivial and unimportant to me.  Sure I did believe those things at one time.  But I'm convinced that if there is a god, he's certainly not Christian, and the chances that he's Catholic are less than that.  I believe that all religions are man made fabrications.  It's not like I haven't made an honest attempt to understand these things, so your implication that I might convert is just wishful thinking, as if I were an ignorant dullard going through life without having pondered the unknowable, along with a lot of other wonders.

To compound your struggle to convert others, I'm more content as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.  Life makes more sense, where before it was a struggle trying to fit the square peg of religion in the round hole of my experience.

I'm an agnostic.  I don't believe anyone, much less you or your current heroes, can prove his religious beliefs to anyone else.  You might convert, but you can never prove.  While you may turn someone's belief to yours, you get a pat on the back, but proving such a thing is beyond you.  At best, you can create an illusion of proof.  I'm an atheist because I don't share your belief.  I'm an agnostic, because I believe there is no proof.  I don't believe in any of the hundreds of gods you reject.  So think about how it feels for you to not believe in all those gods.  That's how I feel about all of them too, plus just one more.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And they went to Joseph's home town so he could register the kid there, making him in the line of David. But why would that stand up if Joseph wasn't the father?

[Randy Carson]

Was Jesus born and raised in Nazareth as one would conclude from reading the historically reliable accounts of John and Mark or was he born in Bethlehem where his parents lived until fleeing to Egypt after a visit from magi to avoid Herod's slaughter of the innocent as told in the historically reliable account of Matthew or was Jesus born while his parents traveled from their home in Nazareth to Bethlehem to register for the census before presenting him in the temple and returning home to Nazareth as told in the historically reliable account of Luke?

Here are the relevant passages in context:

Matthew 2:1-2
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

Luke 2:1-7
In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register. 4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

John 7
42 Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?”


As you can see, all three authors tell us that Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

[Randy Carson]

And they went to Joseph's home town so he could register the kid there, making him in the line of David. But why would that stand up if Joseph wasn't the father?

Joseph and Mary were both of the line of David.

Jesus was the adopted son of Joseph, so he would be registered in the town of his adoptive father.

[Randy Carson]

I'll never think like you or believe like you.  The probability of that happening is somewhere under 1%, closer to zero than to one.

Probably many on both sides of the issue, although I doubt that the overall frequency is that high, because people that have given it much thought have pretty much figured themselves out.  I spent many years hanging on to my slowly diminishing Christianity.  I was in my 50s when I finally admitted to myself that I was an atheist, and had been long before I came to terms with it.

Before that I was continually seeking information that would prove there was a god, but to no avail.  I studied philosophy of religion, read the attempts at proofs from the philosophical heavy weights, learned about logic, and studied the sciences.  So far, you have offered nothing that compares, not even with likes of your cut and pastes.

I only looked for one thing, proof and subsequent knowledge of a god.  All of your efforts at proving the reality of even an ordinary man named Jesus were and still are trivial and unimportant to me.  Sure I did believe those things at one time.  But I'm convinced that if there is a god, he's certainly not Christian, and the chances that he's Catholic are less than that.  I believe that all religions are man made fabrications.  It's not like I haven't made an honest attempt to understand these things, so your implication that I might convert is just wishful thinking, as if I were an ignorant dullard going through life without having pondered the unknowable, along with a lot of other wonders.

To compound your struggle to convert others, I'm more content as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian.  Life makes more sense, where before it was a struggle trying to fit the square peg of religion in the round hole of my experience.

I'm an agnostic.  I don't believe anyone, much less you or your current heroes, can prove his religious beliefs to anyone else.  You might convert, but you can never prove.  While you may turn someone's belief to yours, you get a pat on the back, but proving such a thing is beyond you.  At best, you can create an illusion of proof.  I'm an atheist because I don't share your belief.  I'm an agnostic, because I believe there is no proof.  I don't believe in any of the hundreds of gods you reject.  So think about how it feels for you to not believe in all those gods.  That's how I feel about all of them too, plus just one more.

You say you studied the "heavyweights"...who specifically from the Christian camp?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Joseph and Mary were both of the line of David.

Jesus was the adopted son of Joseph, so he would be registered in the town of his adoptive father.

Lineage passed through the male side, until they needed to cover this fucking flaw in the story, then, like all the other bullshit, they made up lies to try to patch the story together.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Then you have something in common after all.

Neither do they.

Floating Virgin Marys don't count when you on the run, I see.

[Randy Carson]

Lineage passed through the male side, until they needed to cover this fucking flaw in the story, then, like all the other bullshit, they made up lies to try to patch the story together.

FWIW, Jewishness is determined on the Mother's side. Not relevant, but whatever.

[Baruch]

Lineage passed through the male side, until they needed to cover this fucking flaw in the story, then, like all the other bullshit, they made up lies to try to patch the story together.

If Jesus' real dad hadn't been a $&%^ ... he would have showed up at Rome, announced the real Jupiter was Jewish, and lit up all seven hills.

[Randy Carson]

Floating Virgin Marys don't count when you on the run, I see.

Oh, I've spent quite a bit of time reading about Fatima, Lourdes, and the Shroud of Turin...all the big stuff.

Mary's appearances were not mass hallucinations.

[Baruch]

Oh, I've spent quite a bit of time reading about Fatima, Lourdes, and the Shroud of Turin...all the big stuff.

Mary's appearances were not mass hallucinations.

I think some of the theophanies are real, but they are not necessarily Catholic ... just seen by Catholics and interpreted in Catholic terms (duh).  Like NDE.  But then I accept that weird things happen, being a little familiar with the paranormal.  Scientifically, anything miraculous in the usual religious terms ... are hallucinating or lying.  So you could call them mass lying aka collusion to lie about what they saw.  But that would be a conspiracy theory ;-)

I am less charitable to the Shroud of Turin or the Veil of Veronica.  But relics are OK for other people, just not me.  And as visions go, I would prefer not to have them, and I have not.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

If Jesus' real dad hadn't been a $&%^ ... he would have showed up at Rome, announced the real Jupiter was Jewish, and lit up all seven hills.

Yep, the goat herders' campfire tales kinda got out of control.

[Poison Tree]

Are you this dishonest in real life or only when hiding behind a pseudonym?

Here are the relevant passages in context:

Matthew 2:1-2
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

Luke 2:1-7
In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register. 4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

Still don't care to address Joseph and Mary living in Bethlehem and Nazareth at the same time? Or fleeing to Egypt while simultaneously returning home to Nazareth with a stop over in Jerusalem?

John 7
42 Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?”

*sigh* Why didn't you put that verse in context, he asked knowingly?

40 On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”
41 Others said, “He is the Messiah.”
Still others asked, “How can the Messiah come from Galilee? 42 Does not Scripture say that the Messiah will come from David’s descendants and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?” 43 Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. 44 Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.

People objected to Jesus being the Messiah because he was from Galilee not Bethlehem, an objection which John does not refute.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Oh, I've spent quite a bit of time reading about Fatima, Lourdes, and the Shroud of Turin...all the big stuff.

Mary's appearances were not mass hallucinations.

Bald assertion. I think you're just trolling.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Somebody tell me why there's no artificial limbs in the pile of crutches at Lourdes?