Merged Topic - Historical Reliability of the Gospels

[aitm]

You seem to take issue with the thought that man designed various methods to please God.

Of the tens of thousands of gods man has invented, they most all demand that man must "please" the god. Yours is no different, just another ridiculously embarrassing myth that you accept because your parents told you to. You are not special, you are simply deluded and embarrassed to admit it. That is why you are here, to justify your embarrassment. You continue to toss out hand picked verses like they are anything other than mythology. But alas, in the end, your god is still 2000 years late and you are simply to embarrassed by the obvious to admit your were fooled, by your parents. It is alright, billions share your dilemma, you you were taught by your parents and surely they could not be wrong eh?  You have convinced yourself, you cannot convince people who understand fact from fiction.

[LittleNipper]

If you are unconcerned with what others think, then why are you here? 

The key word in all of this is 'believe'.  You have belief.  And you have no critical thinking, no evidence, no facts, no proof. 

I don't take issue with your god--that would be like taking issue with Bugs Bunny, or Pecos Bill or Superman.  They are fictional, so how can I have an issue with them???  What I have issue with is that people who believe as you do want to tell me how to believe and they want to control all of my actions so I act as they deem to be the moral or correct way.  In my view, that is vile.  And immoral.

I want you to have eternal life. For proof there exists the written Word, the dramatic changed lives of a multitude of people (both historical & contemporary), the continued unreasonable hate leveed towards the Jewish people, and the fulfillment of prophecy. Everyone has an opinion that is going to upset someone. The problem is, whose opinion is society to allow at the expense of whom?

[Baruch]

If you don't know what "eternity" means, how do you know what "eternal life" means?  It doesn't mean sitting around a campfire singing Kumbaya forever and ever, amen.  It simply means poetically, to be fully alive.  We all strive for this, each in our own way (otherwise there is no point in having more than one person exist).  Eternity doesn't equal interminable.

[drunkenshoe]

Everything is aside, why would anyone want to have 'eternal' life? Can anyone even begin to comprehend the meaning of existing for all eternity? What does that even mean?

And how is it that you don't ask these questions, but just want to have an 'eternal' life?

[Sargon The Grape]

Everything is aside, why would anyone want to have 'eternal' life?

Because the best movie in history told me to.

[drunkenshoe]

Because the best movie in history told me to.

Bu he means the opposite. They are all going to be giant bug food soon.

And no you won't be having daily unisex group showers.

[Sargon The Grape]

Bu he means the opposite. They are all going to be giant bug food soon.

And no you won't be having daily unisex group showers.

[drunkenshoe]

Oh. OK, OK I get it now.

But still no unisex showers.

[Mike Cl]

I want you to have eternal life. For proof there exists the written Word, the dramatic changed lives of a multitude of people (both historical & contemporary), the continued unreasonable hate leveed towards the Jewish people, and the fulfillment of prophecy. Everyone has an opinion that is going to upset someone. The problem is, whose opinion is society to allow at the expense of whom?

Eternal life, like the Fountain of Youth, is what everybody wants--a very popular fiction.  But there is no proof for either bit of fiction.  The written Word as you like to call it, is also a work of fiction.  Read it and it will be clear to you.  Study how it came about, and it will be clear that it is fiction and why it is put together the way it is.  BTW, when you say 'The Word', which one is it exactly?  Do you know?  Look in the cover and tell me what the name of this 'book' is and when it was compiled.  Then I'll know which Bible you are referring to.

[reasonist]

Yes, littlenipper, you quote from a book, and as proof of it's authenticity you use.....the same book. Circular reasoning at it's finest.
Let's assume the OT is the true word of a god. If you read it carefully, you will find that this omnibenevolent father of your hero killed over 2 million people! Not my numbers; all can be checked and verified. Satan on the other hand, killed only 10 (ten!) people in the good book. Now as a reasonable person, littlenipper, you have to worship Satan if anything.
Now in YOUR book, the NT, please read Matthew 5:17-18 and you will find that your invisible friend wants "every jot and tittle" of his father's word adhered to. That includes stoning of disobedient children, adulterers, fortune tellers, people who work on Saturdays and so many more. Now either you ignore Jesus according to Matthew or you go out on a killing spree. If you don't, you are a cherry picker with selective adherence to the book you so often quote.
However, I understand completely why you ignore all the evidence we presented here. We would all be like you even 200 years ago. Because we didn't know better! Today we have the internet, libraries, book stores, science magazines and so much more to tell us what makes the universe work the way it does. In order to keep your faith, you HAVE to ignore all the evidence. That's the only way to stay in your bubble of wish thinking.

[leo]

And don't  forget Christianity is based in the false premise that Jesus  is the Jewish messiah.  The Jews are right about Jesus don't being their messiah but they are wrong about  the Messiah.  The messiah will never come because there isn't such  a thing as  the messiah. A completely made up concept.

[Mike Cl]

And don't  forget Christianity is based in the false premise that Jesus  is the Jewish messiah.  The Jews are right about Jesus don't being their messiah but they are wrong about  the Messiah.  The messiah will never come because there isn't such  a thing as  the messiah. A completely made up concept.

And what many don't realize is that the first messiah was Joshua.  Moses brought the Jews into the desert and to the edge of the Promised Land.  Joshua actually took them into the Promised Land and secured it at Jericho.  BTW, Joshua and Jesus are the same name and mean the same--Savior.  The Jews created the first Messiah and have been yearning for him ever since.

[LittleNipper]

Your belief IS your ideology.  Those two words mean the same thing in this context.

You make a very poor ambassador for your beliefs if you don't know enough about your beliefs to express them coherently.

If you want to continue posting to this forum, you do have to be concerned with what others thing.

It isn't my ideology, because I didn't institute it nor formulate it. I am compelled to accept it because nothing else fills the void in understanding nature for me. The following questions are answered: Why am I here? Where am I headed? And what happens to me if I don't do anything?

Out of these, the 'What happens if I don't do anything?', is the most haunting for me; as it comes with what the personal variable of choice. As a person of some age, I have witnessed the change in American culture, from one of soul searching to one of shifting blame.

There are of course other belief systems; however, I am far from perfect. If I'm required to be perfect, there is no hope for me. If I am not required to do anything then doing something isn't going to hurt me in the least.  If I need to do something I want to know what that is and where do I find out.

The reason I posted here at all, is that I felt spiritually led to. I "accidentally" came across this forum. I cannot imagine that this is a mutual admiration society, and that thought provoking debate isn't desires by those logging in.  I have no reason not to believe in heaven and hell, and not accepting such will not make such go away if indeed heaven and hell do exist.

I have talked to real people who are "Born-Again" Christians, and they do NOT come across usually as unreasonable or hateful to say the least. In fact, they seem very understanding of human weaknesses and far from unforgiving. What some see as hateful is the unwavering absolute conviction that certain forms of behavior need to be forgiven at all and not just another very acceptable way to live without any ramifications.

[Mike Cl]

It isn't my ideology, because I didn't institute it nor formulate it. I am compelled to accept it because nothing else fills the void in understanding nature for me. The following questions are answered: Why am I here? Where am I headed? And what happens to me if I don't do anything?

Out of these, the 'What happens if I don't do anything?', is the most haunting for me; as it comes with what the personal variable of choice. As a person of some age, I have witnessed the change in American culture, from one of soul searching to one of shifting blame.

There are of course other belief systems; however, I am far from perfect. If I'm required to be perfect, there is no hope for me. If I am not required to do anything then doing something isn't going to hurt me in the least.  If I need to do something I want to know what that is and where do I find out.

The reason I posted here at all, is that I felt spiritually led to. I "accidentally" came across this forum. I cannot imagine that this is a mutual admiration society, and that thought provoking debate isn't desires by those logging in.  I have no reason not to believe in heaven and hell, and not accepting such will not make such go away if indeed heaven and hell do exist.

I have talked to real people who are "Born-Again" Christians, and they do NOT come across usually as unreasonable or hateful to say the least. In fact, they seem very understanding of human weaknesses and far from unforgiving. What some see as hateful is the unwavering absolute conviction that certain forms of behavior need to be forgiven at all and not just another very acceptable way to live without any ramifications.

I must admit that this is your first honest (that is a poor word, I probably mean accurate because I don't consider you to be a liar--blind maybe, but not really dishonest) post on this site.  And I appreciate it.  This, I especially appreciate: "It isn't my ideology, because I didn't institute it nor formulate it. I am compelled to accept it because nothing else fills the void in understanding nature for me. The following questions are answered: Why am I here? Where am I headed? And what happens to me if I don't do anything? "  You are answering those eternal questions we all ask ourselves and you are answering them as best you can.  I can't fault that.  What I find interesting and if you want to, we can explore the different answers I came up with; for I did and do ask myself those very same questions.  My answers lead me directly away from believing in any god or gods.  I am convinced that there cannot be a god.  I will give you a quick reply to those questions:
--Why am I here?  There is no why--it is all happenstance and biology.  Nature does not care one way or the other if I exist or not.  Whatever meaning my life has comes from me and nowhere else. Lest you think that is rather bleak, I assure you it is not.  My life has meaning and always did.  The meaning is derived from doing that which makes me feel good--and that which makes me feel good is to treat those around me with respect and courtesy.  And to love and care for those who are in my immediate life.
--Where am I headed?  Who knows.  I do know that one can never predict tomorrow with any degree of accuracy.  One must life in the moment to live life fully.  That does not mean one does not plan ahead; but one must be aware that life has a way of 'happening' and one then has to chose how to deal with life.  It is in the life choices we make that determines (as much as can be) what lies ahead--or at least how one handles what lies ahead.
--What happens to me if I don't do anything?  Not sure how to address this one.  I guess if I did not give any thought to how I chose to move forward from the happenings of life and just go with the flow, my life would feel out of control.  And even if it really is, I do know that for the most part I have practiced making and not making good sound choices.  I feel that I am in as much control as I can be.
--What happens when I die?  You did not list this, but I'm sure you have thought of it.  I go into the ground and am returned slowly into atoms that are part of the universe.  That's that.  Does that frighten me?  No.  Does that upset me? No.  I was lucky enough to have been afforded a stretch of existence we call life.  I am grateful for that--and I have enjoyed the journey and suspect I will continue to do so.

So, you see, we think the same questions and come up with totally different answers.  And that is the way of the world--or should be.  You should be free to ask and meet those questions as you see fit--as long as you don't infringe on my ability to do the same.  I am in total disagreement on the answers you have come up for you.  But you have every right (to be dead wrong) to chose what is right for you.  And it is even more interesting to me that we have read the same basic literature (the Bible--although I don't know which version you have read) and have come up with the opposite thoughts about it.  I regard it as proof that you are wrong--and you regard it as proof you are right. 

I'm not sure what force drove you to come here and preach, but I do know that whatever souls you think you are rescuing don't exist here.  But if you'd like to have a discussion as to why you and I come to totally different answers to the same questions, I'm willing to have that discussion.

[Sargon The Grape]

The reason I posted here at all, is that I felt spiritually led to. I "accidentally" came across this forum. I cannot imagine that this is a mutual admiration society, and that thought provoking debate isn't desires by those logging in.  I have no reason not to believe in heaven and hell, and not accepting such will not make such go away if indeed heaven and hell do exist.

We love thought-provoking debates here. People like you are just very poor suppliers.

You only came here to preach at us, that much is clear. If, by some small chance, you are making a sincere attempt at creating a dialogue, you are doing a poor job at it. Most everyone here is a skeptic of one variety or another. We arrived at our current positions because we found facts more compelling than feelings; but all you offer is the latter, and we long ago put that method of thinking behind us.

Some atheists do indeed convert (or revert) to theism in one form or another, and vice-versa. I do not dismiss their thinking on account of that conversion, nor do they dismiss mine. What you will find common amongst those people, however, is that they do not resort to emotional arguments like you do: they have thought their ideas through and decided that they make logical sense. If they choose to argue, they will attempt to use facts and logic for the most part. And I respect them for that: I would much rather surround myself with thinkers who don't agree with me than with morons who do.

I'm not asking you to agree with the atheist position. I just want you to meet us in the middle with some critical thinking.