WHO: Processed meats do cause cancer

[mauricio]

Hmm. You just blew your EQ facade.
Cancer is pain and suffering beyond imagination.

I don't know about the ethical obligation to die bit, but cancer is indeed pretty much intrinsic to macro organism life forms, due to the processes of ADN copying itself, cellular division and how this things are affected by radiation and carcinogens widely present in nature. We could greatly reduce it in the future though with how powerful science is but it is a very hard thing to fix due to our environment and our bodies creating a set of conditions that makes it very common.

Baruch what are your thoughts on transhumanism? I bet you do not like it =^)

[Baruch]

I don't know about the ethical obligation to die bit, but cancer is indeed pretty much intrinsic to macro organism life forms, due to the processes of ADN copying itself, cellular division and how this things are affected by radiation and carcinogens widely present in nature. We could greatly reduce it in the future though with how powerful science is but it is a very hard thing to fix due to our environment and our bodies creating a set of conditions that makes it very common.

Baruch what are your thoughts on transhumanism? I bet you do not like it =^)

The video of the chimera with a human ear grown on the back of a "nude" mouse has been going around ... and the technology existed for some time, but is getting better.  So I suspect we will trans-mouse to make minor human body parts.  We kill minks for fur.

Your note on the nature of cancer is spot on ... but our carcinogens will only increase ... we will have to eat worse and worse food and drink and breath worse air ... China is the future.  The human race can't afford business or government ethics ... it can only afford a race to the bottom.  Of course optimists will say ... we haven't hit bottom yet ... and I don't want to spoil their surprise.

On the subject of pain ... my mother and daughter are experts.  I don't have an answer for them or this crowd.  Ameliorating pain in both an effective and non-deleterious way ... would be a god-send ... but probably the only tool we have been given is a good whiskey ... and it is much cheaper than a pill a capitalist jacked up to $750 each.

As I have noted before, particularly in GB ... cloning and adding human genes to sheep is already a done deal.  Are you sure, based on voter response, that adding sheep DNA to people isn't already being done?  In a world where people are just livestock, just say MOOOO

I would add bacteria DNA to Germans, so they can be proper germs (not really).

[Baruch]

Hmm. You just blew your EQ facade.
Cancer is pain and suffering beyond imagination.

My IQ won't levitate a car off of a car crash victim ... and neither will my EQ.  Doctors can be helpful, but they don't wear spandex and fly around the room.  If I could wave my magic wand (I actually have one to fix IT problems at work) and rid humanity of its many scourges ... do you imagine I wouldn't do it?  But that is not the anime cartoon I find myself in, unfortunately.

And as far as suffering goes ... you have no conception what my EQ is ... just because we don't know one another, not because you mistakenly think I don't care.  But I confront death every day as a senior care provider among other things ... and I chose this, I didn't run away from it.  May you find your strength of character as well.

[facebook164]

That post just made your previous post more weird.

[Baruch]

That post just made your previous post more weird.

Its OK if you don't get it.  I don't either ;-)  But conversation thru this medium, at less than 144 character per post in many cases, is like sucking cold peanut butter up a small straw.  It is very difficult, except thru many posts and a photographic memory to provide context.

[facebook164]

No. It isnt so hard. You just dont say that cancer shouldnt be fighted because we die anyway...

[Baruch]

No. It isnt so hard. You just dont say that cancer shouldnt be fighted because we die anyway...

Not what I said ... I said it can't be cured (a ham can be cured but the pig dies).  It can go into remission in some cases ... temporarily.  It is like the crazies who think and advertise that thru technology people will live for hundreds of years in perfect health, and this technology is just a few years away.  There is entropy to contend with ... and we can ... but you have to put energy in (and that costs money, so only expect millionaires to get it) ... it doesn't happen spontaneously (you hear me Adam Smith!) ... what happens spontaneously is that entropy increases ... neither medicine nor society get better automatically.

What a given patient does with their condition, is between them and their doctor.  But don't ask me to pay a million dollars in a vain attempt to prevent life.  One thousand dollars I can afford.  False heroics are ... false ... no matter how much we want to overcome death and taxes.

[facebook164]

Not what I said ... I said it can't be cured.  It can go into remission in some cases ... temporarily.  It is like the crazies who think and advertise that thru technology people will live for hundreds of years in perfect health, and this technology is just a few years away.  There is entropy to contend with ... and we can ... but you have to put energy in (and that costs money, so only expect millionaires to get it) ... it doesn't happen spontaneously (you hear me Adam Smith!) ... what happens spontaneously is that entropy increases ... neither medicine nor society get better automatically.

What a given patient does with their condition, is between them and their doctor.  But don't ask me to pay a million dollars in a vain attempt to prevent life.  One thousand dollars I can afford.  False heroics are ... false ... no matter how much we want to overcome death and taxes.

And this is so much bullshit that I'm done with this discussion.

[Hakurei Reimu]

People who are up in arms about preservatives being bad for you forget why we developed them in the first place: to keep food from spoiling. Eating spoiled food is every bit as bad as eating preserved food, because the spoilage microbes pepper the food with an arsenal of poisons that aren't any better for you, and purposefully so. The 'crobes're saying, "Up yours, you macrosopic meatbag! We got to it first! *blows raspberry*"

Either way, you're navigating a minefield.

[jonb]

Not all preservatives are good, many are banned now.

On every British news programme I have heard over the last day or so the phrase 'Red meat and processed meat are'

Now the report points definitely against processed meat, but there is only very light evidence for red meat of itself being bad. It is therefore interesting that the reports emphasised red meat.
It is mentioned bacon is a processed meat.
So is that traditionally cured pork or the highly processed bacon injected with mixtures of saline and proteans?
If  the traditional method of curing is indited then are we looking at any act of preserving as causing cancer?
If that is the case then modern industrial farming is incapable of delivering non carcinogenic food. As such if we want to avoid cancer only eating seasonal products that are sustainably produced can be relied on.

There is nothing here any proponent of industrial farming could take the slightest encouragement from.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Not all preservatives are good, many are banned now.

Of course not all preservatives are created equal. Formaldehyde is a damn good preservative, but useless for food purposes.

Now the report points definitely against processed meat, but there is only very light evidence for red meat of itself being bad.

Even though red meat is rated just below processed meats on a five bullet scale of badness probability? I don't call that 'light evidence', and in fact there has been evidence building for years that red meat isn't all that good for you either. Hell, the scale even says that it doesn't measure risk but only probability. It tells you that processed meats are carcinogenic, but doesn't tell you how strong a carcinogen it is.

Amateurs assess probabilities; professionals assess risks.

It is mentioned bacon is a processed meat.
So is that traditionally cured pork or the highly processed bacon injected with mixtures of saline and proteans?

You do realize that "saline and proteans" are 'salt water' and 'what bacon is made of', right?

I think that "processed meats" does include traditional curing.

If  the traditional method of curing is indited then are we looking at any act of preserving as causing cancer?

It's quite possible. Most curing techniques result in removing some of the water from the meat, which of course will concentrate all carcinogens in the meat, including the endemic ones.

If that is the case then modern industrial farming is incapable of delivering non carcinogenic food.

As is non-industrial farming. Remember, "processed meats" include traditional farming. Traditionally cured bacon and salamis are indicted along with the industrially processed stuff. They're all hit with the same wide brush.

As such if we want to avoid cancer only eating seasonal products that are sustainably produced can be relied on.

I don't see where that is justified anywhere in the article, or the research. While they know that processed meats are causing cancer, they don't actually know what in processed meats is causing the cancer. It could be the preservatives, or it could be the... well, meat, which you might notice is just below processed meats in WHO rating that it probably causes cancer. Well, it either does or it doesn't, but the epidemiology is pretty conclusive that red meat in and of itself is bad for you, preservatives or no, industrial farming or no.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if meat has endemic carcinogens produced by the animal itself. Poisons and toxins are everywhere in the natural world. Nature is out to kill us.

You will never be able to avoid the possibility of cancer completely. There is only modulated risk. Also, dying of acute food poisoning doesn't sound all that good a fate, either, and even if I survive it, it's probably done no good for me. Again, nature is out to kill us.

There is nothing here any proponent of industrial farming could take the slightest encouragement from.

I think that as far as the science is concerned, the report is absolutely neutral on industrial farming, because it's indicting processed meats and may implicate red meats, which has fuck-all to do with whether or not the meats are processed in a plant or processed using traditional methods.

[facebook164]

It is mentioned bacon is a processed meat.
So is that traditionally cured pork or the highly processed bacon injected with mixtures of saline and proteans?

Both.
That said: what the WHO doesnt say is HOW the risk of getting cancer from processed meat is. Just that it is certain that it can cause cancer.

[jonb]

Of course not all preservatives are created equal. Formaldehyde is a damn good preservative, but useless for food purposes.

That if I may say is not exactly talking about what is actually used in food.
http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/top-10-food-additives-to-avoid

Even though red meat is rated just below processed meats on a five bullet scale of badness probability? I don't call that 'light evidence', and in fact there has been evidence building for years that red meat isn't all that good for you either. Hell, the scale even says that it doesn't measure risk but only probability. It tells you that processed meats are carcinogenic, but doesn't tell you how strong a carcinogen it is.

Amateurs assess probabilities; professionals assess risks.

Oh how much I like this part with its implication I am an amateur and know little.  What is the methodology of the report? It is not just that it shows a relationship between high levels of processed meat consumption and cancer is it, without taking into account lifestyles that of themselves maybe unhealthy?

You could read the report of course.
https://www.iarc.fr/en/media-centre/pr/2015/pdfs/pr240_E.pdf
https://youtu.be/PNwZ4bINaxM
The Dr above is of course biased, but her criticisms do have weight.

You do realize that "saline and proteans" are 'salt water' and 'what bacon is made of', right?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2521119/Chemical-sludge-Meat-glue-Pig-skin-If-water-ALL-pumped-chicken.html
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/08/08/know-10-additives-commonly-found-meat/

I think that "processed meats" does include traditional curing.
It's quite possible. Most curing techniques result in removing some of the water from the meat, which of course will concentrate all carcinogens in the meat, including the endemic ones.
As is non-industrial farming. Remember, "processed meats" include traditional farming. Traditionally cured bacon and salamis are indicted along with the industrially processed stuff. They're all hit with the same wide brush.
I don't see where that is justified anywhere in the article, or the research. While they know that processed meats are causing cancer, they don't actually know what in processed meats is causing the cancer. It could be the preservatives, or it could be the... well, meat, which you might notice is just below processed meats in WHO rating that it probably causes cancer. Well, it either does or it doesn't, but the epidemiology is pretty conclusive that red meat in and of itself is bad for you, preservatives or no, industrial farming or no.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if meat has endemic carcinogens produced by the animal itself. Poisons and toxins are everywhere in the natural world. Nature is out to kill us.

You will never be able to avoid the possibility of cancer completely. There is only modulated risk. Also, dying of acute food poisoning doesn't sound all that good a fate, either, and even if I survive it, it's probably done no good for me. Again, nature is out to kill us.
I think that as far as the science is concerned, the report is absolutely neutral on industrial farming, because it's indicting processed meats and may implicate red meats, which has fuck-all to do with whether or not the meats are processed in a plant or processed using traditional methods.

What sort of preservation and how much it effects we don't know because the study does not directly cover that. However if preservation is of itself a problem then it is hard to see any system which is reliant on preservation being a good model, and although the report does not deal with Industrialised farming head on, that industrialised farming needs the use of preservatives even in so called fresh meat (that is why it is injected) to make it viable the problem becomes evident.

[stromboli]

Its a conspiracy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fox-dana-perino-bacon-conspiracy_562fc644e4b06317990fb778?cps=gravity_5040_5983011156521510055

The panel was discussing a recent report released by the World Health Organization showing that processed meats, like bacon, can lead to cancer. The report ranked processed and cured meat on a top-tier list of carcinogenic substances that includes alcohol, cigarettes, asbestos and arsenic.

But to Fox host Dana Perino, the report is just another ploy from the enviro-crazies to stop you from running the AC with the car windows down or eating a Baconator five times a week.

"I think that there is a bigger conspiracy here anyway by the World Health Organization," Perino said. "Climate change. Global warming. This is all -- there's a big push against any sort of animal consumption."

"Reduce our carbon hoofprint, as they say," co-host Greg Gutfeld joked.

The panel highlighted the story of Susannah Mushatt Jones, the world's oldest woman, who says the secret to her 116-year-long life is eating bacon every morning.

Another host even went as far to say that if she were given the choice between not eating bacon and death, she'd choose death.

So there.  :103:

[josephpalazzo]

Its a conspiracy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fox-dana-perino-bacon-conspiracy_562fc644e4b06317990fb778?cps=gravity_5040_5983011156521510055

The panel was discussing a recent report released by the World Health Organization showing that processed meats, like bacon, can lead to cancer. The report ranked processed and cured meat on a top-tier list of carcinogenic substances that includes alcohol, cigarettes, asbestos and arsenic.

But to Fox host Dana Perino, the report is just another ploy from the enviro-crazies to stop you from running the AC with the car windows down or eating a Baconator five times a week.

"I think that there is a bigger conspiracy here anyway by the World Health Organization," Perino said. "Climate change. Global warming. This is all -- there's a big push against any sort of animal consumption."

"Reduce our carbon hoofprint, as they say," co-host Greg Gutfeld joked.

The panel highlighted the story of Susannah Mushatt Jones, the world's oldest woman, who says the secret to her 116-year-long life is eating bacon every morning.

Another host even went as far to say that if she were given the choice between not eating bacon and death, she'd choose death.

Of course anecdotes trump scientific data.