Tolerance: Muslims Versus Jews

[CloneKai]

So Putin bombing ISIS is genocide? Or a response to holy war (jihad)?

I was talking about Casus belli not the extermination of all Muslims.

I was talking about fighting Islam, which is an IDEOLOGY,  not Muslims. which are people.

my apologies, i also thought you were talking about some kind of big ass war or something.
the problem with this is, you never know who is the islamist you want to fight and who is random guy who want to live his or her life.
and these kind of wars seems to be producing more feeling of patriotism and radicalism than fixing the islamist problem.

So how do you exactly think this can be solved?

[pr126]

So how do you exactly think this can be solved?

I have edited my previous post and added this:


I believe that the ideological war could be successful if we had the courage to broadcast world wide to Muslims and non Muslims what Islam actually is, not what we would like it to be.
Broadcast Muhammad's deeds according to the Islamic scriptures. The Sirat Rasool Allah.
You don't have to make it up, it is all there for the world to see.

But we cannot. We are afraid to hurt the Muslims feelings. Plus they will kill us if we upset them.

Enough with this "Islam is peace" crap. Islam is WAR and always has been.

And you would not need to kill anybody.

Mind you, once the truth comes out about Islam, all hell will be loose.
There will be plenty of dead bodies. But that will only prove Islam's nature.

[drunkenshoe]

I hear alot about how if minority, specifically muslim do some evil shit, people try to ignore it or try to avoid talking about it, so they don't look racist or something. is it true?
what with these specific muslim areas (in UK) i hear about where the hardcore islamism seems to be trying to make people not drink or harass women if they are not covered from head to toe? why aren't the law enforcement not enforcing laws there?

Oh yes that's true that people ignore a lot bullshit. But I don't know what do you mean by 'some evil shit'. However, they have been recording vigilante bullshit and harassment. People are getting arrested. And also the muslim communites are getting awarethat they need to do something if they want to preserve their safety.

On the other hand, years ago, 6 police officers were arrested for sitting on information about a pedophile chain and they defended themselves as 'we didn't do anything because media would all us racists because of muslim perpetraors'. Now, you tell me the level of that bullshit. Pedophile chains are followed by INTERNATIONAL cooperation by al most all countries that can afford to do so. I posted a few threads about this 2 years ago I guess.

And around that time there were international operations reported -after they ended- in US and EU media; with the police force working where I live.

If you think overall, how people live their lives, if there is a constant ignoring and avoiding crime that is supposed to be plummeting like mad? And the claim is this is just about muslim minorities.

I personally think they can do a lot of to put a stop to islamic bullshit in Europe, esp in the UK. They just don't, because it requires a big effort, man power and money AND it is more profitable in a big scale. 

You mentioned you were in Germany. Don't ever think that there is a good solid adminsitration in the UK regarding ANY migrants, let alone muslims. The society evolved to blame every problem they have on migrants. That's the picture.

-While statistics show that migrants are a small group demanding welfare with no affect on the welfare budget, the propaganda is that the UK will bankrupt because of them, while Britons are the biggest welfare  group over all in the EU. 

-They want to pick well paid, white collar jobs without having the needed stats and refuse to do the menial jobs, because they are 'migrant jobs' and then they complain about how unemployment is a result of migrants who were  happily taken to do those jobs in the first place, decades ago.

Roughly this.

All that so called crime epidemics are hyped up as it seems because whenever something breaks out, fortunately some official authority or an expert makes a report that shows 'crime in Europe is in normal range and there is no some specific rise attached to a certain group'. I actually had the same prejudice against muslims when I first read that and nod: 'yeah probably'. But then when you dig behind it a bit, it turns out to be hyped up bullshit.

But then people are simple. Short cuts are easy. Nobody wants to blame their own, esp. a culture tha already defines itself as superior to all. After 9/11, with the toxic media campaigns supporting the invasions, Westerners developed a strong tendency to interpret every change in attitude, bad results and situations as something 'Muslims did or caused'.

Before that Europe had the similar amount of muslim minority, with same culture but the attitude wasn't like this. Nobody points this out. So what happened? Everything changed over a night when planes hit twin towers? Of course not.

However, now this evil necessary, it is beneficial and profitable. And will be for a long time and eventually it will run its course like 'the evil communists' did. Let's hope it won't turn out to be another example of Nazi-Germany in the process.

And I agree with Auntie Merkel that this coming decades will be a serious test for Europe. But not in the way majority of Europeans think. This is a natural result of world policies led by the West back and forth. Looking back, I don't think there has ever been another possible outcome.

[jonb]

And as this is an American forum and as a result the language is English, there is a certain big influence by UK and its culture which is the least friendly country and culture for any kind of migrants. British culture is racist and xenophobic by trait. No, not like every culture. The problem starts with the solid class culture and English oppressing and suppressing any thing other than English. That's the root of the common hatred. Ask the English if they can go around act the way they like in Scotland for example.

OH yes? is that so?
Would you like to provide evidence for that statement? When Did the KKK have a significant hold in the UK.
Would you rather be a Welsh speaker in Britain a native American Speaker in the USA, or a Kurdish Speaker in Turkey?
You might say that the this forum is evidence enough in that an immigrant from Hungry is so protective of the British way of Life that he hates other cultures having an influence here, but that equally disproves your argument doesn't it.
Shall we compare British and Turkish treatment of Minorities? Or even British and American think of Slavery, which was the First country that benefited from it to ban it? France did for a short while and then went back to slavery, Britain then stopped it and has stayed with that decision. Where did the slaves in the USA go to don't say it was Canada a British Colony.
In the Last fifty years there has been so much immigration into Britain that our capital city has now a minority of ethnic British in it. Is there another country in the world that is so open to that and has had such little friction. You might point to New York which is not a capital city, but would anybody say that during the time of mass immigration there was less friction there than there has been in London? Go on look at the facts.
Yes the British have friction over immigration but the troubles we have are less than most places start with.
In world war two the American soldiers that had a colour bar system and tried to keep it in place in Britain then found white American troops in fights with local British people who objected on mass to the idea one man should be treated as a lesser being by another.

This is a picture of Gandhi with English mill workers, they gave support to his fight for Indian independence, even in knowing that it would lead to their loosing their jobs and going hungry. They are probably the grand daughters of the mill workers who went hungry during the American civil war with hardly a protest, because they were so strongly against Slavery, when the north blockaded the south and stopped the export of cotton. Which meant the British government did not step in to protect its trade routes as most other countries would have done.
Would you like the pictures going back say 150 years of black and Indian MPs elected by white British people?

Do not make the mistake because the British people are free and open and talk about our problems they are in anyway as near as bad as the problems your country hides under the carpet.

So put up or say sorry, for your ignorant racism.

[drunkenshoe]

OH yes? is that so?
Would you like to provide evidence for that statement? When Did the KKK have a significant hold in the UK.
Would you rather be a Welsh speaker in Britain a native American Speaker in the USA, or a Kurdish Speaker in Turkey?
You might say that the this forum is evidence enough in that an immigrant from Hungry is so protective of the British way of Life that he hates other cultures having an influence here, but that equally disproves your argument doesn't it.
Shall we compare British and Turkish treatment of Minorities? Or even British and American think of Slavery, which was the First country that benefited from it to ban it? France did for a short while and then went back to slavery, Britain then stopped it and has stayed with that decision. Where did the slaves in the USA go to don't say it was Canada a British Colony.
In the Last fifty years there has been so much immigration into Britain that our capital city has now a minority of ethnic British in it. Is there another country in the world that is so open to that and has had such little friction. You might point to New York which is not a capital city, but would anybody say that during the time of mass immigration there was less friction there than there has been in London? Go on look at the facts.
Yes the British have friction over immigration but the troubles we have are less than most places start with.
In world war two the American soldiers that had a colour bar system and tried to keep it in place in Britian and then found white American troops in fights with local British people who objected on mass to the idea one man should be treated as a lesser being by another.

This is a picture of Gandhi with English mill workers, they gave support to his fight for Indian independence, even in knowing that it would lead to their loosing their jobs and going hungry. They are probably the grand daughters of the mill workers who went hungry during the American civil war with hardly a protest when the north blockaded the south and stopped the export of cotton, because they were so strongly against Slavery. Which meant the British government did not step in to protect its trade routes as most other countries would have done.
Would you like the pictures going back say 150 years of black and Indian MPs elected by white British people?

Do not make the mistake because the British people are free and open and talk about our problems they are in anyway as near as bad as the problems your country hides under the carpet.

So put up or say sorry, for your ignorant racism.

Er... I didn't say KKK had any thing to do with UK or its culture. I said that SPECIFICALLY to pr126 as his solution to the 'muslim problem' is to kill all of them. May be you should first learn to read.

And he replied to that personally, that this was a new one.

So I am skipping all the bullshit you wrote above. I am pretty well aware how Turkish gov treats minorities, Kurds, that's why I vote for their party. 

[jonb]

UK and its culture which is the least friendly country and culture for any kind of migrants

You said this it is a lie!
Therefore you are producing the Bull shit!

[drunkenshoe]

You said this it is a lie!
Therefore you are producing the Bull shit!

Yes, it is the least friendly country to migrants in Europe. I'm familiar with British culture, how they see each other and migrants all over. I'm also familiar with other migrant countries like Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland...etc. UK is not doing a good job culturally. And I understand the reason for that. I am not blindly attacking and saying 'English is baaaad!'

Do you have any idea how many British people we had/have here? Esp. where I live. Not to mention I have close relatives living in Europe, and in England, friends over 20 years. English, Scottish, British-Turkish, Irish...etc. Turks that was born there, lived there for most of their life, British people who lived where I live for a long time...etc.

It's interesting that you get provoked instantly when a negative comment made on your country while you criticise others -mainly American- comfortably. Stop acting like a tribalist. This is not about how many migrants you have. This is about your culture.

[jonb]

Er... I didn't say KKK had any thing to do with UK or its culture. I said that SPECIFICALLY to pr126 as his solution to the 'muslim problem' is to kill all of them. May be you should first learn to read.

So is your justification that you were in an argument with an immigrant to Britain from Hungry and therefore you can lie to win an argument?

If so, there is a wide gulf between us.

[jonb]

Yes, it is the least friendly country to migrants in Europe. I'm familiar with British culture, how they see each other and migrants all over. I'm also familiar with other migrant countries like Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland...etc. UK is not doing a good job culturally. And I understand the reason for that. I am not blindly attacking and saying 'English is baaaad!'

Do you have any idea how many British people we had/have here? Esp. where I live. Not to mention I have close relatives living in Europe, and in England, friends over 20 years. English, Scottish, British-Turkish, Irish...etc. Turks that was born there, lived there for most of their life, British people who lived where I live for a long time...etc.

It's interesting that you get provoked instantly when a negative comment made on your country while you criticise others -mainly American- comfortably. Stop acting like a tribalist. This is not about how many migrants you have. This is about your culture.

There is not one culture in England there is not even one just one native English culture in London, your defence of your lie is first not to read my post, say what you said was a justifiable lie, and now to accuse me of being tribalist, no lets have some truth from you and some facts or an apology.

[drunkenshoe]

So is your justification that you were in an argument with an immigrant to Britain from Hungry and therefore you can lie to win an argument?

If so, there is a wide gulf between us.

No, it is not an argument, it is an opinion and it is based on my personal, first hand experiences with British people in general.

However, I can make an argument based on those experiences, knowing how and what way British people tend to blame migrants for every problem in their country -welfare and unemployment and North European crime epidemics- and cite data that how the picture they are drawing is actually wrong. (I posted something like that in Eurislam thread.) Not that anyone here cares about it. Welfare and unemployment topics are good examples though. I have written a post to Clonekai above somewhere. If you are interested go read it. I am not going to write it again.

My reaction to pr is about his genocidal, war mongering bullshit. I certainly do NOT think he is the standard. But I believe he presents the extreme stand of a general understanding.

[Baruch]

To be fair I think Mauricio has a good point, things are not so bad where America and we allies are not bombing the bejesus out of everything.

True, but Venezuela and Argentina are taking it in the ass from our bankers ... Venezuela more now.  And Brazil (the B in BRIC) is about to coup their own leader again ... but we can blame that all on internal factors ... the Anglo-American combine has clean hands, particularly in the Falklands, or any other place that might have mineral or petroleum deposits, see recent James Bond movie about Bolivia.

Mauricio ... it isn't that Latin Americans are crazy Syrians etc ... but that they are an ant's nest that the US has been stirring since the Monroe Doctrine.  And for the last 20 years, the narco-criminals in Mexico are worse than Columbia, are just like crazy Syrians ... though over drugs that US users demand, not because they have oil (it is going dry in Mexico) and wasn't Venezuela the founder of OPEC ... and wasn't Mexico the first country to nationalize the oil fields, long before the Arabs.  None of this shit would be going down the last 100 years, if everyone had just kissed Exxon's ass!  Mexico says ... too close to the USA, too far from G-d.

[Baruch]

Surah 8 The spoils of war.

8:41
And know that anything you obtain of war booty - then indeed, for Allah is one fifth of it and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and the orphans, the needy, and the [stranded] traveler, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the day of criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah , over all things, is competent.

Then Sura 9, Repentance

9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.


What this means is that Islamic economy was based on looting and extortion by war and conquest.

So this is a prophecy about the British Empire and the USA?

[jonb]

No, it is not an argument, it is an opinion and it is based on my personal, first hand experiences with British people in general.

However, I can make an argument based on those experiences, knowing how and what way British people tend to blame migrants for every problem in their country -welfare and unemployment and North European crime epidemics- and cite data that how the picture they are drawing is actually wrong. (I posted something like that in Eurislam thread.) Not that anyone here cares about it. Welfare and unemployment topics are good examples though. I have written a post to Clonekai above somewhere. If you are interested go read it. I am not going to write it again.

My reaction to pr is about his genocidal, war mongering bullshit. I certainly do NOT think he is the standard. But I believe he presents the extreme stand of a general understanding.

So it is your opinion and that justifies it does it? but you don't like others having opinions that are not justified by the facts. Others are wrong and you are right without reference to fact. I'm getting a good clear picture of your position. and then again the justification you should be able to say whatever you want because the other guy is bad. 

[pr126]

So this is a prophecy about the British Empire and the USA?

If you let it happen.

[Baruch]

they have
little better freedom and somewhat more open society
better education
and greater diversity of ideas

atleast compared to my country.

these kind of things i want in my place, but we don't seems to be going that way.

The story of Arabs is one thing, but the story of Pakistan, as you well know, is very long and quite complicated ... 1700 years ago most of your ancestors were Buddhist ... with a large percentage of Hindus.  But it was the White Huns, who were pagan, more than the Muslims, who came along 200 years later, who destroyed most of your country.  It is a historical accident that Europe has been free at all, for the last 200 years ... one can mainly credit the French Revolution for scaring the upper class into less oppressive means.