UK pub with sign saying fuck off to muslims

[FaithIsFilth]

If the language was "cleaned up" would you object then? The message itself I have no problem with, I actually have no problem with the language either as it is specifically directed at those who would want sharia law and in that case, fuck them.

I agree with this. Some Muslims may argue and say, "Sharia isn't cutting off hands, etc.", but to me that's clearly what Sharia was to Muhammad, so I have no problem with basically saying "Fuck off with your Sharia" on a sign.

I just think this kind of thing is, or at least should just be aimed at fuckers like Anjem Choudary

I highly doubt Choudary is a real person. There's a reason this is the guy that gets to have media appearance after media appearance. It's Choudary's job to go on the news and say exactly what the government wants the people to hear.  Instead of having someone on to rationally explain why the Muslim world is so anti British (all the Muslims killed by the British in war), they put Anjem on where he's making jokes, doing a mic check and going "check 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 7, 9, 11!" and then Anjem goes on promising the IS will raise their flag above the White House, rather than intelligently criticizing Britain's foreign policy. It's a complete joke and I'm surprised so many here eat it up.

[jonb]

well, we're YOUR people offended by the new country?
were they offended by the new culture?
did they ask for or demand the host country accept "your" laws?
If so, then yeah, they should be told to fuck off as well, but obviously in a nicer way.
The point is quite obvious and rather telling, when you move into someone else house, don't demand they change for you.

That culturally is an American point of view, and is also shared by many indigenous British people, but it is not the view of the British ruling class.

Which is why on immigration America had the 'melting pot' where immigrants were expected to become culturally American, but with British rule generally as long as you paid your taxes gave the powers that be due deference they did not give a flying fuck what you thought or even who you were or are.

[drunkenshoe]

Oh wow, how stupid is that? This is exactly the same thing with "NO JEWS" - "NO COLOUR" written on to the windows of shops in the past.

There are 2,5 million muslims in the UK. UK is estimated 64.5 millions and these people are expressing hatred while there isn't anything as a real threat. Not so many years ago, just less than a human life time, people who wrote "No Jews" on the windows of their shops in a certain country saw Jews exactly the same; danger/threat to their life in every way.

Their arguments would exactly be the same with anyone here or anywhere else who thinks this is OK, because those people were people like these ones and they saw Jews as threat in their own terms; economically, lawfully, socially..etc. UK population doesn't just have a problem with Muslims, they have a problem with immigrants in general. 10 years ago, they treated the Polish the same. Now they have a better minority to hate, because they are more 'alien'. If all muslims were deported from the country they would target another group in a different way and whine that immigrants are stealing their jobs and pose a threat to their society.

-The discussion about the language of the 'warning' here is pretty pointless. None of the muslims described in the 'warning' would hang around there let alone go there and drink. Anyone who does drink there has no problem with it anyway. On the other hand, probably they have been serving to a lot of muslims without even knowing, who they don't see as 'muslims' because they drink or their skin colour is not nonwhite. (Irony) Like half the country I live in for example. And now, why would they want to go there? 

They are just radicalising people. It serves to nothing but spark more hatred. Especially, if you think their policies -domestic/international- are based on this social balance. Talk about being clueless.

[drunkenshoe]

America is the melting pot compared to Europe while has a lot of way to go:

-The state is very powerful,
-The country is fucking HUGE
-The understanding of 'classes' does not get translated into the general culture with a 'cast' system as it happens in Europe which is denied constantly.

When people emigrate to the US and become successful with their jobs, besides their economical standing they also get a standing by themselves in the society; hence they become Americans, not just citizens on paper.

For example, my sister won a full phd scholarship from some American university and she has also worked as a res. assit. This happened just after the economical crisis in the begining of 2000s. They employed around 30 students that year. Then when they had to cut down, we thought she would lose her job as a res. asst. if not her scholarship, although she was successful. Because why not she is not an American, but just a 'fresh off the boat' for those people and she is competition.

It didn't happen. Because they only fired the ones under a certain performance without discrimination. And she didn't even think of staying there then, she was there to get an education.

Now, she is white, non religious and had a good edcuation to begin with and we can argue that she was equipped to survive, but the thing is, she observed that she got what she deserved when she works hard. That makes all the difference. She had all the support from her profs, not just money. Hence she became an American, before she became a citizen.

That doesn't happen in Europe. Yes, I am making a generalisation. In fact, many people who work hard, including people working in some jobs considered as 'prestigous' in general -universities, certain companies- hold a much lower standing in society compared to European born people. They are also considered as stealing high quality jobs while they are suppoosed to fill in menial job spots.

An average British born person without any education or facility to get a good job, would easily tell you that immigrants are stealing his job, because he cannot get the job he desires. And if you try to argue with them in a reasonable frame that they simply don't hold the standing to do the job they desire and so it will be filled with people who can, they will fire back how immigrants are trying to hijack the British society. And with the worst, under educated hooligan type you'll end hearing that how the UK is likely to be over run by muslims in a decade and the regime is under threat.

When my sister travels to Europe for some conference as a student for a poster thing, she wins a little award for a project and one of the profs there asks her why she chose America to get her education, but not Europe in a blatant manner. She gets very annoyed and tells him that Europe has nor the culture, neither the constitution to welcome people from underdeveloped countries to make a contribution. Did he get that? I have no idea. But this is the truth.

While USA has a LOT of way to go and constantly put down by Europe on racism, cultural discrimination and so on, the latter is a far more unwelcome, racist place to live for anyone who is nonwhite and born in another country.


PS I am not talking about some stupid notion called 'American dream'. Don't confuse what I am saying here with a made up, hyped up delusion.

[Baruch]

Sometimes in spite of racism ... meritocracy gets in a few good licks ... though there is always a tide pushing the wrong way.

I am acquainted with a British Muslim (I suspect immigrant) who is an advocate for segregated education of young British Muslim children ... because the original British themselves are entirely degenerate predators (in his view).  I contrast to him, that deliberate assimilation works, if done for enough decades, and if there isn't a continuous stream of new people from the donor country.  When the immigration goes on for a long time, it seems that no progress of assimilation has happened, because the prior generation which has assimilated is invisible, and the new immigrants are all that stands out.  That is how it works in the US with Hispanics.  But British law supports velvet ghettos.

An outgrowth of the class system there, where the Ivy League model of education is much more broadly desired by the general populace, and it extends down to early schooling in private schools.  It is British law that supports this class structure, and immigrants have fit in, as a new caste, so long as they don't upset the caste system.  British people who are less class oriented, more nationalist, will be upset.  Change the laws, then immigrants won't come in for the wrong reasons.  Both sides exploit ... both with blame the victim (the other guy).  People adapt, give them reasons for the right adaptation ... angry demands won't work.  This is different than thinking you already have too many people ... that is a separate problem controlled with a different set of incentives.

[drunkenshoe]

Baruch, have you ever got out of the country, or state or the city you were born in? How many places in the world or States you have visited?

Just curious.

[Johan]

This is exactly the same thing with "NO JEWS" - "NO COLOUR" written on to the windows of shops in the past.

If it was a sign that said "NO MUSLIMS" then you'd be right. But it doesn't say that. Nor does it seem to imply that.

[Munch]

If it was a sign that said "NO MUSLIMS" then you'd be right. But it doesn't say that. Nor does it seem to imply that.

Thats my argument. It to me looks like a stab (a rather blatantly crude stab) and extremism. True its insulting any country a Muslim might come from, but again I just think of it taking a stab at the kinds of extremist standards of countries that promote things like sharia law 

[jonb]

Baruch, that is a fairly accurate depiction of my experience as a Londoner. Though there are qualifications. i have yet to find a place where people are not prejudiced. Most people satisfied with their society will tell you there is no prejudice here, but be quite good at pointing out how some other group are awful and very prejudiced.
Both Brazilians and indians confidently tell people their societies are not racially prejudiced but the truth is that in both those places skin tone is a very strong predictor of social status.
I would say in Europe class is the major driving force of prejudice and that although there is racial prejudice the discrimination comes from race being associated with class.
For instance a person of Indian heritage and a white working class person.
If they are both equally qualified and going for a job as a doctor the middle class British selectors are more likely to identify with the Indian than the white working class person, because they have more culturally in common.On the other hand for a lower skilled job the Indian person will face a lot of prejudice, that the white working class person will not.

We can see this class discrimination depicted in the differences between the earnings in the communities in London from the Indian sub continent in those of a Pakistani background and those from Bangladesh which would superficially seem to be quite similar. Bangladesh is far less caste driven than Pakistan, so a Pakistani tends to be better able to negotiate the British class culture it is not that alien a notion to them so they fight for a place and position in society that gives them status often looking down on the indigenous population because they naturally adopt the prejudices of the British upper classes. The Bangladeshi tends to be more satisfied just to fit in with those around them.
This does not just impact on earnings but in the next generation where the Bangladeshi child's average educational achievement is way below that of the child from Pakistani inheritance. I would say this is due to the Pakistani child entering with an attitude of superiority whereas the Bangladeshi child is more likely to accept the position they are given.

I think you will see that if the above is truer than just being my personal assessment that in this structure which seems to be emphasising class and storing up prejudice, that this could well be creating deep problems in the future for London.

Now on the other hand I don't think the 'melting pot' approach is a solution either. I like difference I don't want to become part of a homogenous whole the very idea revolts me. I like knowing who I am and from where I come naturally. If the melting pot was such a good solution French Canadians would have won the 1812 war for the USA.

There is a lot to be said for difference. if we are the same there is little reason for us to talk as we are not going to learn from what we know already.
My desire is to have difference, but without notions of superiority.
That is going to be incredibly hard to achieve, but I think for all the problems it is a worthwhile goal to aim at. 

[drunkenshoe]

If it was a sign that said "NO MUSLIMS" then you'd be right. But it doesn't say that. Nor does it seem to imply that.

Really? Because the next one won't display that sign and this one looks reasonable to you? Because, it's put politically correct?

The 'warning' is openly addressed to muslims, while the group he means has no trade or business to do whatsoever with them.

There is no threat to these people. They are acting exactly like Christian groups in your country claiming they are being discriminated against under bullshit propaganda. And you think these are different things.

[drunkenshoe]

Thats my argument. It to me looks like a stab (a rather blatantly crude stab) and extremism. True its insulting any country a Muslim might come from, but again I just think of it taking a stab at the kinds of extremist standards of countries that promote things like sharia law

As opposed to what would your argument be, if some store or a pub or some place displayed even a slightly homophobic warning, Munch? You are gay and you belong to a minority too.

There is no threat to your country from muslims. You are perfectly aware of that and the general culture built upon hatred against immigrants, the incompetency of your governments and the state. Scratch that, the general British culture that would make for example, let's say some places in Scotland dangerous to live for an Englishman.

Yet, you and others take joy in some brain dead piece of shit putting a sign of insulting an entire group of people who has nothing to do with their trade.

[drunkenshoe]

By the way, almost every poster in this forum among regulars got offended by one of my posts about USA in this or that way in the past 4 years.  Including you Johan.

So let's cut the crap of 'I wouldn't get offended by something like this'.

If you do not recognise this as for the thing it is, you are just making a choice not to.   

[Munch]

As opposed to what would your argument be, if some store or a pub or some place displayed even a slightly homophobic warning, Munch? You are gay and you belong to a minority too.

There is no threat to your country from muslims. You are perfectly aware of that and the general culture built upon hatred against immigrants, the incompetency of your governments and the state. Scratch that, the general British culture that would make for example, let's say some places in Scotland dangerous to live for an Englishman.

Yet, you and others take joy in some brain dead piece of shit putting a sign of insulting an entire group of people who has nothing to do with their trade.

DS please understand, if I thought the sign was nothing but blatant racism without any other ulterior meaning, then I would regard it as just that. But I simply saw it as someone who was, in a ham fisted way, telling extremist Muslims to not bring extremist views over to the uk, which I agree with, we have extremists in the uk who do come over here and want sharia law made a thing in the uk. To those people I would indeed say fuck off to.

If the sigh said kill all brown people, then I would take great offense to it and even rip it down myself. But it left me wondering if it was that, or taking a stab as extremism. Theres never been a case of gay men wanting violence and rape made a law in the uk, so its not quite the same thing as telling extremists views to fuck off.

[drunkenshoe]

DS please understand, if I thought the sign was nothing but blatant racism without any other ulterior meaning, then I would regard it as just that. But I simply saw it as someone who was, in a ham fisted way, telling extremist Muslims to not bring extremist views over to the uk, which I agree with, we have extremists in the uk who do come over here and want sharia law made a thing in the uk. To those people I would indeed say fuck off to.

The warning is not saying fuck off to the 'extremist' muslims. It says 'fuck off to muslims', because the people who wrote that sign see no difference. In fact those people have no idea who is from what country, which ones drink which ones do not, they do not have any trade with them at all. That's highly likely one of the reasons they are so comfortable with this.

If the sigh said kill all brown people, then I would take great offense to it and even rip it down myself. But it left me wondering if it was that, or taking a stab as extremism. Theres never been a case of gay men wanting violence and rape made a law in the uk, so its not quite the same thing as telling extremists views to fuck off.

You know perfectly well that NOONE can dare to put up a sign to anywhere as to "KILL 'insert of any group of people' " in London. Because it would be illegal and it would get the pub into trouble, to be investigated and even out of business for a time. So your example is irrelevant.

Also what is so disturbing here is that your implication of that racism is limited to a blatant call for to kill some group of people. But if you are getting your direction from Pat Condell, it might as well be.


If you start to think similar to the extremists you are fundamentally against, may be it is time to reconsider where you are standing.

[GSOgymrat]

"MUSLIMS. Are you unhappy with our countries? Are you offended by our culture? Would you prefer to live under sharia law? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the f**k out of our countries and go back to the monstrous s**tholes you came from. You can live under Muslim rule there and enjoy it as much as you like.!"

"MEXICANS. Are you unhappy with our country? Are you offended by our culture? You want to speak Spanish? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the fuck out of our country and go back to the monstrous shitholes you came from. You can speak Spanish there and enjoy it as much as you like!""

"ATHEISTS. Are you unhappy with our country? Are you offended by our culture? You don't want to worship God? Then we have a simple solution for you. Get the fuck out of our country and move to fucking Russia. You can study your evolution and have abortions all you like!"


It's a very versatile sentiment.