Athiest Morality

[Johan]

So if you think
Christianity never needed to tell us about morality, why do you think they spent so much time doing it?

Because its the only product they've ever had to offer. Religion is a business and always was. And no business can survive without customers. In religion we call them followers not customers but all the same rules of business apply. Lose all your customers/followers and your business/religion goes away.

Far and away the number one marketing strategy of religion for attracting and keeping followers is liberal use of fear (you're going to burn in hell) and then offering a product that will avert that fear. And that product of course is morals. 'This book is your pathway to living a moral life which will guarantee your place in heaven. But its a convoluted text which is difficult to understand so you'll need me to tell you what it means and guide you constantly along your path lest you lose your way. But all that guiding takes up most of my time which prevents me from making a living so I'll need you to tithe me a little bit of your income and in exchange I'll guide you on your path to heaven (which I made up) and keep you from going to hell (which I also made up). What a bargain for you eh'?

If morals is the only product your business has to offer, the last thing you want is for your customer base to realize that they can get their morals on their own. So you nail that shit down and keep it down by constantly reinforcing that the ONLY way to a moral life is via the bible and your particular brand of religious bullshit. And if you do it right then all these years later, even self proclaimed atheists like yourself will still struggle to understand how it is that someone can be moral without a belief in god. Brilliant. Those Nigerian email scammers ain't got nothing on religion.

You are clearly right their morals were pretty screwed up but I assume they were acceptable back then.  And I don't think many Christians are running around wanting to rape you or your daughters today.   So indeed times have changed.  So why are you referring to morals back then to degrade the need for morals today?

Where did I degrade anything?

[Givemeareason]

I make myself moral.

I decide what's good or bad and it's subject to change. My views generally align with the society I live in.

But how would you know.

[Givemeareason]

Because its the only product they've ever had to offer. Religion is a business and always was. And no business can survive without customers. In religion we call them followers not customers but all the same rules of business apply. Lose all your customers/followers and your business/religion goes away.

Far and away the number one marketing strategy of religion for attracting and keeping followers is liberal use of fear (you're going to burn in hell) and then offering a product that will avert that fear. And that product of course is morals. 'This book is your pathway to living a moral life which will guarantee your place in heaven. But its a convoluted text which is difficult to understand so you'll need me to tell you what it means and guide you constantly along your path lest you lose your way. But all that guiding takes up most of my time which prevents me from making a living so I'll need you to tithe me a little bit of your income and in exchange I'll guide you on your path to heaven (which I made up) and keep you from going to hell (which I also made up). What a bargain for you eh'?

If morals is the only product your business has to offer, the last thing you want is for your customer base to realize that they can get their morals on their own. So you nail that shit down and keep it down by constantly reinforcing that the ONLY way to a moral life is via the bible and your particular brand of religious bullshit. And if you do it right then all these years later, even self proclaimed atheists like yourself will still struggle to understand how it is that someone can be moral without a belief in god. Brilliant. Those Nigerian email scammers ain't got nothing on religion.
Where did I degrade anything?

It seemed you were creating a straw man argument attacking christian morality back then to justify attacking christian morality today.

[DeathandGrim]

 

But how would you know.

Because I'm me. When I take the overthinking bullshit out of that I'm the base for my morality after I've become an adult. I don't go running to mommy and daddy anymore.

[Johan]

It seemed you were creating a straw man argument attacking christian morality back then to justify attacking christian morality today.

So you're saying christianity no longer involves the bible in any way? I didn't know that.

[Givemeareason]

So you're saying christianity no longer involves the bible in any way? I didn't know that.

The problem with Christianity is the leaders.  The followers just want to live their lives.  As you should be aware there are many people out there trying to decide how to interpret the bible and if people could decide on what should be applicable today there wouldn't be a problem.  The problem is the Jerry Fallwell types who keep coming along trying to shove literal interpretations down everyone's throat.  So if you could quit listening to people like that you could see the true nature of Christianity.  I am only defending the religion and not the way it is applied.

[Johan]

And once again you're missing the point. It is a myth that people need religion or god or a book in order to be moral.

[Givemeareason]

And once again you're missing the point. It is a myth that people need religion or god or a book in order to be moral.

Oh, I have not missed that point at all.  I am proof that you are right.  But I am not sure that is true of most people.  So maybe it is a good thing that religion is still around.

[Johan]

 

Oh, I have not missed that point at all.  I am proof that you are right.  But I am not sure that is true of most people. 

That's my point. It is true of most people. Many of them don't know it or wouldn't believe it, but its true none the less.

And that's why I said what I said above. There is some truly fucked up shit in the bible. And if people were unable to dictate their own morality without religion, lots of that fucked up shit would still be perfectly acceptable behavior. But thankfully, people have the ability to look that fucked up shit in the bible and decide that doing it wouldn't be moral today. Therefore whether they want to believe it or not, they do indeed have the ability to live their lives in a moral way without any need for religion.

[Givemeareason]

That's my point. It is true of most people. Many of them don't know it or wouldn't believe it, but its true none the less.

And that's why I said what I said above. There is some truly fucked up shit in the bible. And if people were unable to dictate their own morality without religion, lots of that fucked up shit would still be perfectly acceptable behavior. But thankfully, people have the ability to look that fucked up shit in the bible and decide that doing it wouldn't be moral today. Therefore whether they want to believe it or not, they do indeed have the ability to live their lives in a moral way without any need for religion.

And now you are missing the point.  My morals are not Christian as evidenced by my moral statement above.  I would say my moral position is not that high.  But there are many people running around saying things like they follow the Golden Rule or the Wiccan way and then turn right around and break these rules on a daily basis.  Wouldn't you agree these are not moral people?

[Johan]

I'd have to know more about them before I could judge I think.

[Brian37]

There is no "atheist morality". There is human evolution which produces both cruelty and compassion, both force and cooperation. "Atheist" merely means "off" or "empty" on god claims. It is not a religion. It is not a political party. It is not an economic view. It is not a loyalty oath. It is not a moral code.

I have run into atheists who value "Ayn Rand" "fuck you I got mine" atheists. I have run into Che atheist supporters. I do not like either. I know other atheists who masturbate over owning guns. I know other atheists while rightfully rejecting god claims buy into conspiracies like JFK and 9/11.

"Atheist" is a position. Yes we do have clubs and no, that does not mean we should not have clubs. It merely means we should not be blind loyalists. We are still like every other label part of the same evolution and not even "atheist" is a patent holder that will automatically make us do good or bad.

[Givemeareason]

There is no "atheist morality". There is human evolution which produces both cruelty and compassion, both force and cooperation. "Atheist" merely means "off" or "empty" on god claims. It is not a religion. It is not a political party. It is not an economic view. It is not a loyalty oath. It is not a moral code.

I have run into atheists who value "Ayn Rand" "fuck you I got mine" atheists. I have run into Che atheist supporters. I do not like either. I know other atheists who masturbate over owning guns. I know other atheists while rightfully rejecting god claims buy into conspiracies like JFK and 9/11.

"Atheist" is a position. Yes we do have clubs and no, that does not mean we should not have clubs. It merely means we should not be blind loyalists. We are still like every other label part of the same evolution and not even "atheist" is a patent holder that will automatically make us do good or bad.

Exactly.  We have no moral compass so whatever morality we hold within ourselves becomes more difficult for others to observe.  Except when we profess a moral position such that others can see and hold us to that standard.  Christians though are committed to a standard by which they can be held to that standard by being observed as not conforming to it.  And which we delight in pointing out to them.  But meanwhile we utter whatever moral position we like often with the intent of deceiving people.

[Givemeareason]

There is no "atheist morality". There is human evolution which produces both cruelty and compassion, both force and cooperation. "Atheist" merely means "off" or "empty" on god claims. It is not a religion. It is not a political party. It is not an economic view. It is not a loyalty oath. It is not a moral code.

I have run into atheists who value "Ayn Rand" "fuck you I got mine" atheists. I have run into Che atheist supporters. I do not like either. I know other atheists who masturbate over owning guns. I know other atheists while rightfully rejecting god claims buy into conspiracies like JFK and 9/11.

"Atheist" is a position. Yes we do have clubs and no, that does not mean we should not have clubs. It merely means we should not be blind loyalists. We are still like every other label part of the same evolution and not even "atheist" is a patent holder that will automatically make us do good or bad.

All I am saying is that we should preach what we practice and not say otherwise.  So if we we practice Hate thy Neighbor that becomes our moral standard at least while we are on this board.  I wish people would stop trying to confuse me.

[Munch]

I wish you'd stop trying to confuse yourself