Suicide Squads 'new' Jared Leto Joker

[Munch]

Well from what I've seen it is like a castration of said character.

But, I'm putting a hold on this now for one good reason. In the coming months marvel is going to launch its big summer event where by now after destroying all the multiverse storylines and even killing off all super godly beings in the marvel universe (except perhaps the one above all, marvels own version of God -_-) they are going to reset everything are start the marvel universe again with the slate wiped clean.

At that time none of this will matter, and the real complaints will come in with whatever they do after this happens. So I'm gonna stop complaining about the here and now and just wait to see what transpires with marvel.

As for dc and it's movie franchise ARGH HE LOOKS AWFUL BLLEEHHH

[drunkenshoe]

Well from what I've seen it is like a castration of said character.

OK, I get it. But I'm curious, why does it bother you? Because I think it is related to why people, mostly men, do not like female pratogonists, esp. in this genre. Would you feel similar things, if Thor was defeated by a super heroine? 

But, I'm putting a hold on this now for one good reason. In the coming months marvel is going to launch its big summer event where by now after destroying all the multiverse storylines and even killing off all super godly beings in the marvel universe (except perhaps the one above all, marvels own version of God -_-) they are going to reset everything are start the marvel universe again with the slate wiped clean.

At that time none of this will matter, and the real complaints will come in with whatever they do after this happens. So I'm gonna stop complaining about the here and now and just wait to see what transpires with marvel.

As for dc and it's movie franchise ARGH HE LOOKS AWFUL BLLEEHHH

Well, I think you guys are expecting too much from the genre.

[Munch]

OK, I get it. But I'm curious, why does it bother you? Because I think it is related to why people, mostly men, do not like female pratogonists, esp. in this genre. Would you feel similar things, if Thor was defeated by a super heroine?

You got me all wrong. I like female protagonists, I like strong female role models in comics, I like badass super heroines and super villains. I fact in the past I use to write fan fiction and make up characters with some strong female protagonists and villains myself, So I appreciate when good female characters, Original characters, are written well and done right.

Infact, my most fav female super hero of all time, is wildstorms The Authority's Jenny Sparks, she was such a strong, badass character with a great background and purpose. And, spoilers, [spoiler]one of the things that made her awesome, was because of the story that every 1000 years a woman would rise to lead or be given the power to govern based on that millennium, in her case, the discovering of electricity, knowing when it hit midnight in the year 2000, she would die, and a new Jenny would be born, so in her final mission, she did something nobody thought possible, she Killed God, not a god, but The God of that universe. [/spoiler]

What I hate, is taking a character who has been established for years, and just removing them from the spectrum, just to replace them with a clone done purposely to be the opposite of them in all ways including sex, when the real character is still around. They did this with Dr Octopus in the 90s and had a female version of him, that didn't wash, and they eventually brought back the real Dr Octopus.

In context, if they removed all of wonder womans powers, and gave it to a man, who now stood at the head of the league, how would that feel? (I know marvel has wonder man but its a different character in a different genre), if all wonder womans powers passed to a man, and she was left powerless and human, how would that come across?

Well, I think you guys are expecting too much from the genre.

Not saying I like the idea they have to reboot everything to fix their messy writing, just more accepting this is whats gonna happen.

[drunkenshoe]

You got me all wrong. I like female protagonists, I like strong female role models in comics, I like badass super heroines and super villains. I fact in the past I use to write fan fiction and make up characters with some strong female protagonists and villains myself, So I appreciate when good female characters, Original characters, are written well and done right.

What I hate, is taking a character who has been established for years, and just removing them from the spectrum, just to replace them with a clone done purposely to be the opposite of them in all ways including sex, when the real character is still around. They did this with Dr Octopus in the 90s and had a female version of him, that didn't wash, and they eventually brought back the real Dr Octopus.

In context, if they removed all of wonder womans powers, and gave it to a man, who now stood at the head of the league, how would that feel? (I know marvel has wonder man but its a different character in a different genre), if all wonder womans powers passed to a man, and she was left powerless and human, how would that come across?

I was just asking out of curiosity.

Except, what you don't like here, could be the main purpose. May be they are trying to do exactly what you have described. May be they have chosen Thor, because he is a trendy character with an artifact attached to his power, which can be taken and given to another one. So they chose him. Taking his power from him and giving it to a female character.

On the other hand, they wouldn't need to take Wonder Woman's powers and pass it to a man to create another male character. They would just bring one among the countless ones on page or a create another one easy. Also as you said there is already a Wonder Man. He exists without touching the Wonder Woman. But if they created a female character in another sub genre with the same name -if the situation was reversed- I don't think the reaction would be this neutral or positive.

I am not questioning anyone's personal taste. I'm trying to say that allthough there are a few beloved female characters, they can't win wherever they put them. Probably, they know that and it is the reason why they are 'castrating' an established male character. If it holds, there could be similar others. Eventually, a period of adjustment could start and in time when female characters become the norm as the male ones, looking back this period would be like...what do you call little wheels we install when children are learning to ride a bike in English? Adjusting wheels? Anyway I don't know, you got what I mean. It could work. Other than that Thor won't die. They will make a lot of those movies.

And also it is very new to say anything, but apparently it sells for now.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/3/21/8269747/female-thor-is-outselling-the-old-thor-by-30-percent

[the_antithesis]

And.. just... why....

Because you kids think that's cool.

Knock it off.

I mean, okay, in terms of any movie and its creators artistic licence, they can do whatever they want with the characters since its their project.

Back in the 80's and 90's, various scripts for Spider-Man were kicking around. Rumor has it one adaptation was a horror movie where a guy turns into a half-man, half-spider monstrosity. They should have made that movie instead and then we wouldn't have any super hero movies at all. Batman would have just been that year's Twilight.

[the_antithesis]

To create an original female character from scracth is very difficult. Very risky.

And yet they've been doing it for decades, almost as long as they'd been making male super heroes.

So the problem is not coming up with female characters nor is it marketing female characters. The problem is like salads at Carl's Jr. As the owner once put it, they offer healthier alternatives but nobody buys them.

People just don't buy super heroines. Girls aren't interested in the genre, by and large, and boys don't want to read about some icky girl thing.

But then, through most of the late 80's and 90's, the X-Men, one of the most popular series of that time, had a mostly female roster. So maybe that's not true, either.

Tell you what it does remind me of. Remember Mr Terrific? No? That's OK. Nobody does. He hasn't been seen much since WWII ended.



They've recently launched a new version of the character who is black.



Isn't that nice. They made a super hero that nobody has heard of and fewer care about to the black people because that how it works in a pasty white patriarchy. It's tokenism of the worst kind, trying to tap into the "urban market" which is what marketers call black people when they don't want to sound racists because, get this, black people don't read that many comic books. Hard to believe considering all the nice, white super heroes they could aspire to be. (And even this much may not be true. Shaquille O'Neal is a bit of a Superman fan. He was willing to star in Steel which was as close as he could get to actually playing Superman, I guess. Pity)

So it is with the female Thor. It's a marketing stunt that was done less to increase diversity and to appeal to a wider audience (although they keep saying that) but to sell comics to the pasty white male shlubs who already buy the damned things, because they always buy shit that makes mainstream news. And such a change is piss-easy to reverse if the sales ever wane.

This chick is not the first alternate to wield Thor's Hammer.

There was Beta Ray Bill, some weird space alien who had Thor's powers for a time.



There was Eric Masterson, who also held the hammer for a while. Of course, being another blond white guy makes him uninteresting.



Comics companies are always shaking up the status quo on their characters these days because they found that sells periodicals, although I have a hard time believing the kids today are that dumb to feel like things are being shook up if they are constantly shaking things up.

The female Thor will simply go away and the original male version will be re-established when they believe doing so will sell more periodicals.

Remember when this was Batman?



Well, he isn't anymore.

Remember when this was Superman?



That didn't last, either.

Why should the female Thor?

More importantly, why even bother discussing this cynical marketing strategy? They didn't make the change because they had a compelling story to tell or wanted to make a profound political statement.

They.
Wanted.
To.
Sell.
Comic.
Books.

And that's all. We're putting more thought into this than they did.

That all said, I wonder what the reaction would be if a traditionally female character were similarly gender-swapped. A tall order since many of the established female characters are female versions of male characters (this was a copyright ploy to keep a competitor from making a Supergirl or a She-Hulk more than an attempt at making a worthwhile character). But what if they introduced a new Wonder Woman who was transgender?

I don't know what the reaction would be, hence why I find that interesting.

[drunkenshoe]

And I just clicked in to say 'hey also black heroes...' Well, you said nicely.

You pretty much said the things I said, anti. Of course it is to sell comic books. Or I missed something.

Except, I was talking about an original female character which is not forced into a male stereotype when I said it is very difficult and risky. Something completely original. If there are more than I know on page, then let's change my statement about comics into movies. And I said that -now in 3 different threads- it is an issue beyond any genre.

Nobody wants to watch women in anything other than a few things. It's almost like people, most men do not enjoy women presented as normal humans. And then claim that there is nothing sexist about media. This whole thing is for me like 'I don't know if I should laugh or cry'. I am trying to avoid when I can.

[Munch]

Just going on this what you said about appealing to urban culture more with making white characters black, tell me, with the upcoming new fantastic four movie, what is your opinion on them making Johnny Storm, the human torch, a black guy?
Considering how he's meant to be sue storms brother, how the fuck did they work that one around?

Don't get me wrong, when it comes to things that don't seem to raise questions, as in race, it doesn't bother me so much. When they had michael clark duncan as the kingpin in daredevil, I didn't question it, I just took it that this is the movieverses telling of it, so those kind of mild changes don't matter much. The same with nick fury, who was white for decades, now being black and personified as samual L jackson, because they used the ultimate universe as the standing for that it didn't feel like it even mattered at all, it was the same character regardless of skin.

But something annoys me here, if they wanted to have the marvel movieverse human torch black, why didn't just also find an actress who was black to play sue storm, or if they were doing it purely to have a token black guy, why didn't they make mr fantastic or Ben Grimm black?

It feels like there should be a joke in here somewhere.

"I'm Johnny Storm the human torch, and this is my sis Sue, the invisible woman, we're brothers and sister, we have the same parents, Honest!"
"Riiiiiiiiight.... "

[the_antithesis]

There's a new Fantastic Four movie?

What idiot asked for that?

[Munch]

There's a new Fantastic Four movie?

What idiot asked for that?

I even looked it up on imdb, Kate Mara plays 'Sue Storm' and Michael B. Jordan plays 'Johnny Storm'.

And yeah, I looked up several articles, they outright said they thought it was a good idea having a black actor play human torch, because it shows a 'progression of the times'. you know, nevermind that the characters sister isn't even the same skin color as him..

[PickelledEggs]

I even looked it up on imdb, Kate Mara plays 'Sue Storm' and Michael B. Jordan plays 'Johnny Storm'.

And yeah, I looked up several articles, they outright said they thought it was a good idea having a black actor play human torch, because it shows a 'progression of the times'. you know, nevermind that the characters sister isn't even the same skin color as him..

I saw that. Why didn't they make Sue Storm black also? I was going to ask if they were stupid or something, but then again, they did decide to make a new fantastic four movie...

[Munch]

I brought this up on another forum, and someone said they read the reason for this is that Sue Storm is adopted.

I can't help but feel they had to purposely work that into the plot of this movie just so they could validate having a black actor in marvels current extreme forced diversity pandering.

don't get me wrong, I'm not going to see this one, I think it just bothers me how marvel is becoming one of these companies that doesn't mind messing up its own characters and comics all just so they can appear more 'progressive', even if it makes little to no sense. 

[PickelledEggs]

I brought this up on another forum, and someone said they read the reason for this is that Sue Storm is adopted.

I can't help but feel they had to purposely work that into the plot of this movie just so they could validate having a black actor in marvels current extreme forced diversity pandering.

don't get me wrong, I'm not going to see this one, I think it just bothers me how marvel is becoming one of these companies that doesn't mind messing up its own characters and comics all just so they can appear more 'progressive', even if it makes little to no sense. 

I mean... they could have just kept the same story and not force a new backstory by making them both black.

Another thing I had a huge problem with this new fantastic 4 thing, is that they don't even have a concept of how light works. I mean... look at this promo poster...

They can't even hire a someone to illustrate their poster correctly? Really? As someone that deals with lighting as part of my job, I think that is almost as insulting as forcing storyline to promote diversity.

[DeathandGrim]

This joker design is so bad.

[Munch]

This joker design is so bad.

And even in the sense that it would be so hard for an actor to follow along from Heath Ledgers Joker and give a good performance, you'd think they would at least try to make it work with what makes the character good. Heath ledgers joker came about only recently, and they adapted a much darker, more real world tone for him, and yet managed to keep the concept of the joker to who he is, the costume design, the white face paint, the green messy hair, it was more real, but it kept to the classic joker design of an insane smartly dressed clown.
I'm not seeing this in the new design, he doesn't even strike intimidation, which the joker is meant to.


Scary ^


Scary ^


Fucking terrifying ^



Not Scary! ^