Anti-Vaxers - They are everywhere!

[Baruch]

I do remember my quarantine.  I was 5-ish when I got scarlet fever.  We--the family--were quarantined for a week.

And well you should be.  But if public intoxication is a disease, then where is the quarantine for all the alcohol users, smokers and druggies?  If compulsive gambling is a disease, who will be quarantine the Indian casinos?

[PopeyesPappy]

"Sure, you have the right to not vaccinate your kids. However, we have the right to not allow UN-vaccinated kids into school with other kids. Carry on!"

Once again parents should not have the right to make that decision for their children. Kids have rights too. Their right to have the best chance to avoid contracting nasty communicable diseases and possibly propagating them to others trumps their parent's right to make ignorant uninformed decisions on behalf of their children. A parent's rights end where their responsibility begins.

[Fickle]

Baruch

And well you should be.  But if public intoxication is a disease, then where is the quarantine for all the alcohol users, smokers and druggies?  If compulsive gambling is a disease, who will be quarantine the Indian casinos?

The next step may be re-defining a disease or abnormal condition, is stupidity a disease of the mind?. Should we quarantine the weak minded as incapable of making rational decisions?. The problem I see is that, as you imply, once one starts pointing fingers where does one stop?. I only have ten fingers... but so many places to point them generally away from myself.

It does seem a little hypocritical, I could be a chain smoking alcoholic who likes to peddle crystal meth to kids and bugger them given the chance but if I do not get vaccinated then apparently I'm are a bad person. I'm not sure I understand the logic here, maybe it's just me.

[chill98]

Once again parents should not have the right to make that decision for their children. Kids have rights too. Their right to have the best chance to avoid contracting nasty communicable diseases and possibly propagating them to others trumps their parent's right to make ignorant uninformed decisions on behalf of their children. A parent's rights end where their responsibility begins.

But your not talking about a kids right over-riding a parental right to make a decision for a minor.  Your using the image of kids to promote what YOU think is right.

Will those children have the right to refuse the vaccine?
At what age will these children be able to give consent to the vaccine injection; as in communicate to the doctor Yes/No I want a shot.

Its not a right if you are compelled by law.

[Baruch]

Baruch
The next step may be re-defining a disease or abnormal condition, is stupidity a disease of the mind?. Should we quarantine the weak minded as incapable of making rational decisions?. The problem I see is that, as you imply, once one starts pointing fingers where does one stop?. I only have ten fingers... but so many places to point them generally away from myself.

It does seem a little hypocritical, I could be a chain smoking alcoholic who likes to peddle crystal meth to kids and bugger them given the chance but if I do not get vaccinated then apparently I'm are a bad person. I'm not sure I understand the logic here, maybe it's just me.

That is the problem with socialist medicine ... ultimately all of your behaviors increase or decrease the costs you put on society for your behavior, and a CPA will decide that you do or don't do, to optimize his expenditure on you.  This is the flip side of British Utilitarianism ... the British alternative to Socialism, is the father of Neoliberalism.  Socialism per se, comes from the other side of the English Channel, particularly France.

Not accusing anyone, but disease is scary ... but some people are bacteria-phobes, they take precaution too far.  One reaction to the ebola epidemic in W Africa, would have been to nuke the area, to prevent its spreading.  After all, the Africans brought it on themselves.

[chill98]

No. There are too many people that are just too stupid/ignorant to be allowed to make those kinds of decisions for their kids. If they want to off themselves fine, but stupid people shouldn't be allowed to make stupid decisions that could affect the health of their children and others.

QUOTE-
However, significant changes in B. pertussis populations have been observed after the introduction of vaccinations, suggesting a role for pathogen adaptation in the persistence and resurgence of pertussis. These changes include antigenic divergence with vaccine strains and increased production of pertussis toxin.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frits_Mooi/publication/235620025_Pertussis_resurgence_waning_immunity_and_Pathogen_Adaptation-Two_Sides_of_the_same_coin/links/0a85e52ffaccb2ec32000000.pdf

Waning immunity has been noted since at least 1996 -

Law of unintended consequences can be applied here.  Viri mutation to survive, basic evolution unfolding before the educated eyes of the consensus, and an increase in the production of its toxic waste...

The pertussis vaccine was never as good as marketed.  Rather, doctors did not believe people coming in with the symptoms of whooping cough had actual whooping cough because, in general, they believed it was impossible because that kid had been immunized.  Misdiagnosis of chronic bronchitis was the mainstay.

The ebola outbreak was an interesting evolution unfolding before our eyes.  Mutations creating new strains that kill fewer of the infected because it is not in a virus best interest to kill its host before that virus can find a new home vs pertussis "These changes include antigenic divergence with vaccine strains and increased production of pertussis toxin."

Too stupid to make such decisions?  Nope, its Too Arrogant To Remember The Basics Of Evolution.

In the late 50s, approx 1% of alleged polio cases was lab tested. Of that 1% slightly more than 50% did NOT reveal a polio infection. 

And I repeat myself:

From 2012:

Furthermore, while India has been polio-free for a year, there has been a huge increase in non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP). In 2011, there were an extra 47,500 new cases of NPAFP. Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received. Though this data was collected within the polio surveillance system, it was not investigated. The principle of primum-non-nocere was violated.

http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/index.php/ijme/article/view/110/1065

Selecting india and all the years produces a country specific table:

https://extranet.who.int/polis/public/CaseCount.aspx

Back in the pre-vaccine era, polio diagnosis was based on symptoms rather than actual testing.  There is quite a bit of controversy over just how much polio was actually part of the epidemics of past and how much was misdiagnosis.   The India data lends to that controversy with an +80% testing for confirmation.

Have a great day!

[Hakurei Reimu]

QUOTE-
However, significant changes in B. pertussis populations have been observed after the introduction of vaccinations, suggesting a role for pathogen adaptation in the persistence and resurgence of pertussis. These changes include antigenic divergence with vaccine strains and increased production of pertussis toxin.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frits_Mooi/publication/235620025_Pertussis_resurgence_waning_immunity_and_Pathogen_Adaptation-Two_Sides_of_the_same_coin/links/0a85e52ffaccb2ec32000000.pdf

Waning immunity has been noted since at least 1996 -

Law of unintended consequences can be applied here.  Viri mutation to survive, basic evolution unfolding before the educated eyes of the consensus, and an increase in the production of its toxic waste...

Pertussus toxin is not "waste." It's a specific adaptation to encourage growth.

The pertussis vaccine was never as good as marketed.  Rather, doctors did not believe people coming in with the symptoms of whooping cough had actual whooping cough because, in general, they believed it was impossible because that kid had been immunized.  Misdiagnosis of chronic bronchitis was the mainstay.

Where did you get this? You didn't get this from your cited paper. In fact, the authors encourage vaccination of mothers and changes to the pertussus vaccine to restore its effectiveness.

The ebola outbreak was an interesting evolution unfolding before our eyes.  Mutations creating new strains that kill fewer of the infected because it is not in a virus best interest to kill its host before that virus can find a new home vs pertussis "These changes include antigenic divergence with vaccine strains and increased production of pertussis toxin."

Too stupid to make such decisions?  Nope, its Too Arrogant To Remember The Basics Of Evolution.

No, this is still stupid. You advocate taking away any sort of protection short of natural immunity and gambling against uncaring nature, instead of doing something about the problem of infectious illnesses with increased survival prospects. If you really think that some (albeit imperfect) immunity to pertussus is worse than none when facing an actual infection, you are stupid. Period.

In the late 50s, approx 1% of alleged polio cases was lab tested. Of that 1% slightly more than 50% did NOT reveal a polio infection. 

Which 1% was that?

And I repeat myself:

From 2012:

Furthermore, while India has been polio-free for a year, there has been a huge increase in non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP). In 2011, there were an extra 47,500 new cases of NPAFP. Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received.

I'm interested in knowing how a developing country with poor health care in many areas can really assure that it can be "polio-free." Or how it could know that a clinically indistinguishable case is something not caused by polio rather than just a more serious case of polio.

You know, given that clinical presentations is all you have to go by in most cases in developed countries, let alone a developing country.

Though this data was collected within the polio surveillance system, it was not investigated. The principle of primum-non-nocere was violated.

Primum-non-nocere is only violated if you know ahead of time that the odds are not in the patient's favor. This is not the case with polio. We have the figures, your DDT and SV40 bullshit notwithsanding.

http://www.issuesinmedicalethics.org/index.php/ijme/article/view/110/1065

Indian source. I don't know what its peer review quality is.

Selecting india and all the years produces a country specific table:

https://extranet.who.int/polis/public/CaseCount.aspx

Back in the pre-vaccine era, polio diagnosis was based on symptoms rather than actual testing.  There is quite a bit of controversy over just how much polio was actually part of the epidemics of past and how much was misdiagnosis.

Again, the near total collapse of polio cases following universal immunization in the US puts lie to this, given that the exact same clinical diagnosis would be used. And the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis/March of Dimes would have been keeping track. They would be the first to screech, "Hey, this isn't working!"

Of course, India is quite firmly in the tropics. Lots of wacky and nasty diseases there, perhaps some polio-like in presentation.

The India data lends to that controversy with an +80% testing for confirmation.

Have a great day!

A developing country tested 80% of its vaccinated population to confirm that they took? Really? I call bullshit.

[chill98]

Pertussus toxin is not "waste." It's a specific adaptation to encourage growth.

That's the best you can do when faced with a journal article reflecting evolutionary change in a bacteria that seems to be caused by the very immunization program - via evolution/mutation survival of the fittest - implemented to eradicate the problem? 

Where did you get this? You didn't get this from your cited paper.

1.  I didn't claim it came from the previous link.
2. How would you know?  You refused to read/watch videos I posted previously.
3. Google is your friend.  Figure it out for yourself.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4460821?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

The above is of particular note as the study was done on the old vaccine, rather than the newer one (dtap).   The waning immunity issue was not explored for many years.  Confirmation bias === over confidence in vaccine protection

You advocate taking away any sort of protection short of natural immunity and gambling against uncaring nature, instead of doing something about the problem of infectious illnesses with increased survival prospects.
If you really think that some (albeit imperfect) immunity to pertussus is worse than none when facing an actual infection, you are stupid. Period.

More fallacious responses.
1. No where do I advocate Taking AWAY any sort of protection YOU would choose to undergo for YOURSELF or YOUR child.
2. Informing people that the shot isn't as good as advertised
!= instead of doing something
3. Either you're immune or you're at risk.  People walking around with a mild case of whooping cough, beeleeving it must be something else because --wait for it-- they HAD their shots, are not willingly risking the health of their newborn nephew/niece when they all get together at the family function....  Mothers of young children taking them in for their annual check-ups at the clinic are not willingly exposing these kids to whooping cough because -- wait for it -- they think that herd immunity is an actual function of the vaccine programs; after all, the majority (more than 95%) of the people wandering that same clinic have been immunized (depending on location).

4. Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

I'm interested in knowing how a developing country with poor health care in many areas can really assure that it can be "polio-free." Or how it could know that a clinically indistinguishable case is something not caused by polio rather than just a more serious case of polio.

1. deflection regarding whether or not india is polio free is not the issue we are discussing.
2. Of the cases of acute flaccid paralysis (AFP) TESTED to confirm polio (if you would have retained the info in the links), you would understand how WHO (world health org) obtained their numbers.
3. That's because you have never looked into the issue.  As is so typical for people in general, you just parrot what you've been taught.

I don't know what its peer review quality is...

A developing country tested 80% of its vaccinated population to confirm that they took? Really? I call bullshit.

See, this is a perfect example of your inability to objectively process the information provided.  You are confusing the REALITY -->  India testing cases of acute flaccid paralysis (AFP) to confirm whether or not it was polio vs what you
BEELEEVE YOU READ -->  becomes testing 80% of its vaccinated population.

Now to speak to you in a way you are accustomed (ad hominen):
The bullshit is somewhere between your optic nerve and your brain processing/interpreting the written word.... possibly reflected within your attraction to cartoons (unreality -- you can make it up as you go) or possibly it is a psychological thing for you- a need for an absolute right - Do you struggle with multi choice questions; those kinds of questions that have more than one right answer? 

[Baruch]

Some people have "faith" in nature or medicine.  Either nature tends to be supportive of human desires ... or if indifferent to humans or hostile to humans, then that is a good thing for larger ecological reasons or because humans are the enemy.  In all cases, I just see human projection ... either self-love projection or self-hate projection.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Fair and balanced (like Fox News).

[marom1963]

I don't know why this is an issue. Stuff your religion - and other beliefs - up your ass, the kid is getting vaccinated, whether you like it, whether you agree. END OF STORY. The vaccinations should be mandatory for every child, regardless of how the parents feel about it. If you resist, the child will be taken away, and you will go to prison for child abuse. END OF STORY. The only alternative would be to quarantine the bastards, and that is ridiculous. You will have your kids vaccinated, no matter how you feel about it - that is that and quite that. There is no exception, not for religion, not for political views, not for any reason. Your one option is to leave the country and not come back.

[chill98]

I don't know why this is an issue. Stuff your religion - and other beliefs - up your ass, the kid is getting vaccinated, whether you like it, whether you agree. END OF STORY. The vaccinations should be mandatory for every child, regardless of how the parents feel about it. If you resist, the child will be taken away, and you will go to prison for child abuse. END OF STORY. The only alternative would be to quarantine the bastards, and that is ridiculous. You will have your kids vaccinated, no matter how you feel about it - that is that and quite that. There is no exception, not for religion, not for political views, not for any reason. Your one option is to leave the country and not come back.

Dont know where you live but for where I live, your wrong:

http://www.nvic.org/vaccine-laws/state-vaccine-requirements.aspx

You don't know why it is an issue because you have never explored it. 

[PickelledEggs]

FFS, calm down, kiddies. That means you too, chill98

[Baruch]

I don't know why this is an issue. Stuff your religion - and other beliefs - up your ass, the kid is getting vaccinated, whether you like it, whether you agree. END OF STORY. The vaccinations should be mandatory for every child, regardless of how the parents feel about it. If you resist, the child will be taken away, and you will go to prison for child abuse. END OF STORY. The only alternative would be to quarantine the bastards, and that is ridiculous. You will have your kids vaccinated, no matter how you feel about it - that is that and quite that. There is no exception, not for religion, not for political views, not for any reason. Your one option is to leave the country and not come back.

Which is why I am antisocial ... sometimes.  Society can stuff its rules up its ass.  Misanthropy is completely justifiable ... given we are talking about monkey people.

BTW - I support mandatory vaccination in most cases.  There are exceptions to every rule, only we don't get to choose them ourselves, there are professionals for that.

[marom1963]

Which is why I am antisocial ... sometimes.  Society can stuff its rules up its ass.  Misanthropy is completely justifiable ... given we are talking about monkey people.

BTW - I support mandatory vaccination in most cases.  There are exceptions to every rule, only we don't get to choose them ourselves, there are professionals for that.

We force people to follow building codes, fire codes, seat-belt laws, all sorts of other laws for the welfare of society. Get the little buggers vaccinated ... I'm told where I can and cannot light my pipe! Say I'm a moron who refuses to believe that smoking and second-hand smoke are bad for you, should I be allowed to light up wherever I please? Only those who believe that smoking is bad for you should have to comply w/the smoking bans in restaurants and bars and public parks?