Do you see a problem with this argument?

Started by SNP1, January 14, 2015, 11:21:16 AM

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SNP1

January 14, 2015, 11:21:16 AM
P1) A creator god can exist if, and only if, tensed facts exist.
P2) Tensed facts do not exist.
C) A creator god does not exist.

Premise one is supported because if tensed facts do not exist, then the universe does not, and cannot, have a cause. It is either eternal or emergent.

Premise two is true under the B-Theory of Time, which physics supports.
"My only agenda, if one can call it that, is the pursuit of truth" ~AoSS

Solitary

#1
January 14, 2015, 11:51:40 AM
What are tensed facts?  :doh: :redface:
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

SNP1

#2
January 14, 2015, 01:24:46 PM
Quote from: Solitary on January 14, 2015, 11:51:40 AM
What are tensed facts?  :doh: :redface:

Is there really a "now", "before" or "after"? If tensed facts exist, then those things do exist. If tensed facts do not exist, then those things do not truly exist (they only appear to exist, similar to an illusion).
"My only agenda, if one can call it that, is the pursuit of truth" ~AoSS

dtq123

#3
January 14, 2015, 05:59:33 PM
Why does god need tensed facts? Similar to matter in the big bang, he could "always be there" Like those Christians say.
A dark cloud looms over.
Festive cheer does not help much.
What is this, "Justice?"

SNP1

#4
January 16, 2015, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: dtq123 on January 14, 2015, 05:59:33 PM
Why does god need tensed facts? Similar to matter in the big bang, he could "always be there" Like those Christians say.

Because if there are no tensed facts then nothing begins, nothing ends, nothing progresses. There is only an illusion that things begin, end, or progress.

From the view of outside the universe (if you could somehow look into the universe from a "god-view")
The universe never began if there are no tensed facts. The universe never changes if there are no tensed facts (static). The universe never ends. It just is. There is a first moment in time (with no beginning) and possibly a last moment in time (with no end).

God could not create the universe. God could not change the universe. God could not end the universe. If there was a god, then it would be unable to do anything with the universe, and so the universe would be equivalent of if there is no god.
"My only agenda, if one can call it that, is the pursuit of truth" ~AoSS

Mr.Obvious

#5
January 16, 2015, 04:12:27 PM
I admire your vigor. But i don't quite follow. Either it's my lack of english that holds me back. Or if i don't quite see how you could verify of disprove these 'tensed facts'. Or something else... Feel like i like wherry you're going. But i don't quite follow.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

SNP1

#6
January 16, 2015, 04:19:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Obvious on January 16, 2015, 04:12:27 PM
I admire your vigor. But i don't quite follow. Either it's my lack of english that holds me back. Or if i don't quite see how you could verify of disprove these 'tensed facts'. Or something else... Feel like i like wherry you're going. But i don't quite follow.

This is philosophy. It is mostly thought experiment.

There also is an experiment that helps confirm the B-Theory of Time:
https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/quantum-experiment-shows-how-time-emerges-from-entanglement-d5d3dc850933
http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.4691

Also, relativity points to the B-Theory of Time.
"My only agenda, if one can call it that, is the pursuit of truth" ~AoSS

Mr.Obvious

#7
January 16, 2015, 05:06:01 PM
Without disrespect; i don't mind philosphy nor qm. But a long and fruitless debate with someone on This very forum who had at most as little knowledge About The latter as i had but without The decency to admit it, has left me weary of entering another discussion in which the two are mixed. There are others on This site better suites to follow your thoughts, i think. Hope you have a good talk but i am out :p
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Atheon

#8
January 17, 2015, 12:25:21 AM
But god is god! Sez so in the BABBLE!!
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Mike Cl

#9
January 18, 2015, 01:40:05 PM
I am still very confused about "tensed facts".  Can you give a couple of examples?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

SNP1

#10
January 18, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
Quote from: Mike Cl on January 18, 2015, 01:40:05 PM
I am still very confused about "tensed facts".  Can you give a couple of examples?

Tensed fact about "before":
Morning came before night.
Today comes before tomorrow.

Tensed fact about "after":
Night comes after day
Today came after yesterday.
"My only agenda, if one can call it that, is the pursuit of truth" ~AoSS

the_antithesis

#11
January 18, 2015, 03:06:16 PM
Quote from: SNP1 on January 14, 2015, 11:21:16 AM
P1) A creator god can exist if, and only if, tensed facts exist.
P2) Tensed facts do not exist.
C) A creator god does not exist.

Premise one is supported because if tensed facts do not exist, then the universe does not, and cannot, have a cause. It is either eternal or emergent.

Premise two is true under the B-Theory of Time, which physics supports.

What the fuck are you babbling about now, Cosmo?

Mike Cl

#12
January 18, 2015, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: SNP1 on January 18, 2015, 02:21:55 PM
Tensed fact about "before":
Morning came before night.
Today comes before tomorrow.

Tensed fact about "after":
Night comes after day
Today came after yesterday.
I see those as conventions and not facts.  They are shortcuts in conversation.  Night--a dark period when one cannot see the sun from where you are.  Day--when the sun is visible from where you are. 
The flow of time as we experience it is easier to talk about if we label various parts of it.  Yesterday, today, tomorrow are just conventions or shortcuts in conversation. 
So far, the use of the term "tensed facts" simply muddies the picture.  I don't find that useful in the least. 

Our universe could have always been; with or without a 'creator'.  Or it could simply be one of many; with or without a creator.  Or there are other ideas as well, I suppose--none of which needs a creator. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

La Dolce Vita

#13
January 19, 2015, 02:29:55 PM
Quote from: SNP1 on January 14, 2015, 11:21:16 AM
P1) A creator god can exist if, and only if, tensed facts exist.
P2) Tensed facts do not exist.
C) A creator god does not exist.

Premise one is supported because if tensed facts do not exist, then the universe does not, and cannot, have a cause. It is either eternal or emergent.

Premise two is true under the B-Theory of Time, which physics supports.

Yes, there are two things that render the argument invalid - the first only in our current understanding of the universe, while the latter will not change.

1. Tensed facts have not, as far as I'm aware, been disproved. Therefor point 2 cannot be stated as a fact, and the argument is invalid.

2. Who said that a god would have to be a part of this universe? A deity could have designed this universe, with time as an illusion, looking in from outside of it. Potentially as an 8th grade science project. :P

Mike Cl

#14
January 19, 2015, 09:29:46 PM
Quote from: La Dolce Vita on January 19, 2015, 02:29:55 PM

2. Who said that a god would have to be a part of this universe? A deity could have designed this universe, with time as an illusion, looking in from outside of it. Potentially as an 8th grade science project. :P
According to Star Trek, that is what it was. :)
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?
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