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Trayvon Martin, One year later

Started by Jmpty, February 26, 2013, 06:59:59 PM

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Davka

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"It should be noted that this wasn't a "dark alley".  This was a broad, open walkway between two rows of condominiums:
Not trying to be persnickety, but "dark alley" conjures up an image of Brooklyn tenements and shooting galleries in my own head.

Point taken - it wasn't a narrow space between tenements.

It was, however, both dark and off of the paved road. And Zimmerman was very obviously following Martin, giving him reason to be fearful and defensive - especially after Zimmerman got out of his truck and began stalking Martin on foot.

If it's dark and someone is obviously following me in a vehicle and then, when I leave the paved road, gets out to follow me on foot, I'm going to assume they are either a cop or a robber. If it's dark and they don't identify themselves, the suspicion that they are a robber increases. If I'm a black kid in a racist area and the stalker is not black, the probability that they are looking for trouble skyrockets.

Thumpalumpacus

Understood.  I'm not trying to advance any argument by making the point -- just wanting to make the circumstance clear.
<insert witty aphorism here>

Nonsensei

This has become tiresome. If you really think that following someone makes you at fault if the person you are following decides to assault you then we will never have any common ground.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

Shiranu

Re:
#33
Quote from: "Nonsensei"This has become tiresome. If you really think that following someone makes you at fault if the person you are following decides to assault you then we will never have any common ground.

Your right, we won't have any common ground... because stalking innocent people with a gun is unacceptable in the modern world.

If you dont think you would be suspicious when, in the middle of the night, a person is stalking you... are you going to fucking think, "Oh, golly gee! This guy must want to meet me really bad, I bet he is going to come and hug me!"

No, your going to fucking be like, "Oh shit, I am about to get mugged (or worse).".

But no, the black guy has to always be the criminal. Treyvon instigated the confrontation with the guy stalking him, so he DESERVED IT. And if he had run, Zimmerman would have most likely shot him in the back, because he is the unoffical cop of this town.

Don't fucking talk to me like you have respect for the law when you want to defend this vigilante shit stain.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Nonsensei

Quote from: "Shiranu"
Quote from: "Nonsensei"This has become tiresome. If you really think that following someone makes you at fault if the person you are following decides to assault you then we will never have any common ground.

Your right, we won't have any common ground... because stalking innocent people with a gun is unacceptable in the modern world.


And in the modern world you are absolved of responsibility if you attack someone who turns out to be better armed than you are.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

Johan

#35
Quote from: "Nonsensei"One thing that sticks in my mind though. You say if Zimmerman had minded his own business Martin would still be alive. Isn't it also true that if Martin had just continued to walk home he would still be alive? Why did he turn around and confront someone he is worried might be following him? Who does that? Wouldn't you do your best to escape?
There is only one living person who knows whether Martin actually turned around and confronted Zimmerman. And since that person has a vested interest in seeing Zimmerman found not guilty, I don't know that I'd be inclined to take his word for it.


EDIT FOR: Typed on a tablet
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

mnmelt

"One thing that sticks in my mind though. You say if Zimmerman had minded his own business Martin would still be alive. Isn't it also true that if Martin had just continued to walk home he would still be alive? Why did he turn around and confront someone he is worried might be following him? Who does that? Wouldn't you do your best to escape?"

Who does that are women like me who were taught that if we thought we were being followed by someone to first change direction.. and if they continue to follow you turn and confront them.. You are less likely to be attacked if your "Follower/stalker" knows you are aware of them..
Jesus loves me but I still make him wear a condom

Davka

Quote from: "Nonsensei"
Quote from: "Shiranu"
Quote from: "Nonsensei"This has become tiresome. If you really think that following someone makes you at fault if the person you are following decides to assault you then we will never have any common ground.

Your right, we won't have any common ground... because stalking innocent people with a gun is unacceptable in the modern world.


And in the modern world you are absolved of responsibility if you attack someone who turns out to be better armed than you are.
This is the point at which everything becomes pure speculation. We don't know what happened when Martin decided to ask Zimmerman why he was acting like a stalker. We don't know how belligerent Zimmerman was, or how belligerent Martin was. All we know is that a self-appointed policeman with a history of arrogance and confrontation shot a 17-year-old kid, who is no longer around to tell his side of the story.

We do have the 911 call from Zimmerman, which gives a window into Zimmerman's state of mind at the time, and we have a history of complaints from neighborhood residents that Zimmerman often overstepped his authority. We have Zimmerman's lengthy history of acting like a wannabe cop. We have Zimmerman's deliberate disobeying of the 911 dispatcher's strong advice, and his outright lie that he was getting out of his truck "to read a street sign" (anybody see any street signs in that grassy area between the buildings?)

But we don't know who swung first, or what was said before the fight broke out. We have only the word of a man who has a very strong motive to paint the encounter as self-defense against an unprovoked attack.

Shiranu

Quote from: "Nonsensei"
Quote from: "Shiranu"
Quote from: "Nonsensei"This has become tiresome. If you really think that following someone makes you at fault if the person you are following decides to assault you then we will never have any common ground.

Your right, we won't have any common ground... because stalking innocent people with a gun is unacceptable in the modern world.


And in the modern world you are absolved of responsibility if you attack someone who turns out to be better armed than you are.

Who the fuck is saying that? Seriously? Who the fuck is saying that?

You whine and bitch about this argument being tiresome, but all you do is throw strawman after strawman out and keep your head so fucking far up your ass.

If it was proven Zimmerman had no intention of stalking Treyvon and hadn't shot him, and that Zimmerman did not initate confrontation but Treyvon, than Treyvon should have certainly been charged with assault. No one is fucking denying that, infact that has been brought up already.

But thats not what fucking happened. Treyvon was stalked, unnecessary confrontation was started BY ZIMMERMAN by pursing Treyvon (after being told not to by police dispatch), physical confrontation was started by one of the two parties (you instantly assume it was Treyvon, I say it could have been either party... but its ME who has the bias), and Zimmerman murdered a teenager who he stalked.

So don't give me this bullshit strawman about how we want Treyvon to have been absolved of all guilt, how we have a bias towards him, when you have decided that Zimmerman is the god-damn Jesus reincarnate who couldn't have done anything wrong. Your entire argument has been based on the premise that Zimmerman is 100% innocent despite the self-admission that he stalked an unarmed teenager and thus is the one who created the situation.

If Zimmerman would have just just driven by, Treyvon would be alive right now. If Zimmerman would have called the police and followed their directions, Treyvon would be alive right now. If Zimmerman would have stayed in his truck instead of getting out and pursing Treyvon, Treyvon would still be alive. So dont give me this bullshit how Zimmerman was a saint who did nothing wrong.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Johan

Quote from: "Shiranu"If Zimmerman would have just just driven by, Treyvon would be alive right now. If Zimmerman would have called the police and followed their directions, Treyvon would be alive right now. If Zimmerman would have stayed in his truck instead of getting out and pursing Treyvon, Treyvon would still be alive. So dont give me this bullshit how Zimmerman was a saint who did nothing wrong.
Word!
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Thumpalumpacus

This is, in essence, a religious debate.  There's a shitload of a priori reasoning going on, a shitload of evacuated-middle, a shitload of political spin-cycle.
<insert witty aphorism here>

Seabear

This thread is fucking priceless. People who werent there concocting and constructing a hypothetical version of events in their minds solely from what they have been exposed to in the media, in order to justify their 20/20 hindsight notions and opinions of the hypothetical events.

The best part is these same people arguing vehemently that everyone else should construct the same hypothetical version of events as they have based solely on what we have been exposed to in the media.

"If" this and "if" that... GMAFB

/unsubscribe
"There is a saying in the scientific community, that every great scientific truth goes through three phases. First, people deny it. Second, they say it conflicts with the Bible. Third, they say they knew it all along."

- Neil deGrasse Tyson

Hydra009

Quote from: "Jmpty"I would be interested to hear everyones thoughts on this case. Have you changed your mind after some time to think, or do you feel the same way?
And now you know.  Our views haven't changed and we're even more prickish and judgmental in disagreeing with each other this time around.  Progress!   :D/

Nonsensei

Quote from: "Shiranu"all you do is throw strawman after strawman out and keep your head so fucking far up your ass.



Quote from: "Shiranu"So dont give me this bullshit how Zimmerman was a saint who did nothing wrong.

Comedy gold.
And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

Davka

Quote from: "Nonsensei"
Quote from: "Shiranu"all you do is throw strawman after strawman out and keep your head so fucking far up your ass.



Quote from: "Shiranu"So dont give me this bullshit how Zimmerman was a saint who did nothing wrong.

Comedy gold.
Well, Irony Gold, maybe.  :-?