Trayvon Martin, One year later

[Nonsensei]

I think I see the problem now... you aren't fluent in English are you?

Jesus, I feel bad now... I have been getting annoyed, but you cant even understand the langauge so OF COURSE you make no sense!

When did I become that douche that attacks people who don't use English "properly"...

Are you a drunkenshoe sock puppet?

[Shiranu]

Yes! You got me! How did you know?

Polis ça??r?n! Its a sock puppet!!!

By the way...

If Zimmerman would have just just driven by, Treyvon would be alive right now. If Zimmerman would have called the police and followed their directions, Treyvon would be alive right now. If Zimmerman would have stayed in his truck instead of getting out and pursing Treyvon, Treyvon would still be alive.

...but yeah, he was definately justified...

[Nonsensei]

I only ask because you sound quite a lot like her right now.

[Shiranu]

I looked back over every post he's posted in thread, and nowhere does Nonsensei say that Zimmerman "did nothing wrong" or anything to that effect. That means that imputing that position to him is indeed strawmanning.

This has become tiresome. If you really think that following someone makes you at fault if the person you are following decides to assault you then we will never have any common ground.

That literally took me about 8 seconds, and I am too lazy to go back and find more. As that is the most relevant to the evidence we do have, that is why I choose it.

As for the other part...

You've also argued "when you have decided that Zimmerman is the god-damn Jesus reincarnate" as a point, too.

Yes, that was hyperbole on the same level as the saint remark... that he thinks Zimmerman has done nothing wrong. As I pointed out in his quote above, that is how he is apporaching it.

As for having our minds made up... yes, I agree. And I have made up my mind that anyone who refuses to accept that stalking (with a gun) an unarmed teenager is acceptable is a disgusting person and needs to be called on it.

The difference is my view doesn't harm anyone. His does. So I feel completely morally justified in calling him on it.

[Nonsensei]

Yes, that was hyperbole on the same level as the saint remark... that he thinks Zimmerman has done nothing wrong. As I pointed out in his quote above, that is how he is apporaching it.

Thats how the LEGAL SYSTEM approaches it Shiranu. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. My entire participation in this thread has been about the EVIDENCE and the LAW. Not how hes a white supremacist who engaged in racial profiling. Neither of those things are illegal. Following Trayvon Martin wasn't illegal either. None of the things we KNOW he did for certain are illegal.

And this is where we part company because you think those completely legal things he did were contributory and make any defense he might have mounted as the victim of an assault by Martin illegal.

And thats bullshit, because it puts Zimmerman in a position where he would be choosing between breaking the law or getting the shit kicked out of him.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I looked back over every post he's posted in thread, and nowhere does Nonsensei say that Zimmerman "did nothing wrong" or anything to that effect. That means that imputing that position to him is indeed strawmanning.

This has become tiresome. If you really think that following someone makes you at fault if the person you are following decides to assault you then we will never have any common ground.

That literally took me about 8 seconds, and I am too lazy to go back and find more. As that is the most relevant to the evidence we do have, that is why I choose it.

Yeah, "lazy" is the word for it ... but it's lazy thinking.  He didn't say Zimmerman didn't do anything wrong.  He's said that he doesn't know that Z is at fault.

You really shouldn't laugh about the English comprehension of others if yours is going to be this sloppy.

As for the other part...

You've also argued "when you have decided that Zimmerman is the god-damn Jesus reincarnate" as a point, too.

Yes, that was hyperbole on the same level as the saint remark... that he thinks Zimmerman has done nothing wrong. As I pointed out in his quote above, that is how he is apporaching it.

No, he didn't argue anything of the sort.  You're using "hyperbole" as a totem in order to avoid the use of the term "strawman", but functionally, they're identical -- you're imputing upon him a position he hasn't spoken.

As for having our minds made up... yes, I agree. And I have made up my mind that anyone who refuses to accept that stalking (with a gun) an unarmed teenager is acceptable is a disgusting person and needs to be called on it.

That's your prerogative, but I find it pretty unconvincing.  When a person is in public, they sacrifice some rights to privacy, and a person in public certainly has no right to tell anyone else where they can or cannot go.  Zimmerman was clearly wrong in a common-sensical basis.  He clearly ignored his Neighborhood Watch training.  He clearly ignored what he had been instructed by the local Sheriff's office.  But that doesn't mean that he's criminally liable.

I notice also that you're presuming that Zimmerman knew that Martin was unarmed.  That is not a given.  Were you aware of this implicit premise of yours, or not?

Myself, I think Zimmerman was at the very least negligent.  As to whether he was criminally negligent, the jury will hear the evidence and render their verdict.

The difference is my view doesn't harm anyone. His does. So I feel completely morally justified in calling him on it.

Your view can result in harm as well.

[DunkleSeele]

Given the lack of evidence of him being innocent, he can go fuck himself.

You display the same vigilante mentality you ascribe to Zimmermann.

Oh and no, I don't consider you a big bad terrible person. More like a whiny, frustrated little boy.

Oh, I didn't realize saying someone can go fuck themselves means I think they deserve life in jail, the death penality and that I need to get up and go shoot them.

See, here I was, sitting at a computer... thinking "he can go fuck himself" means, "Wow, this dude's a prick. He can go put his nuts in a firepit for all I give a shit.".

And you have the cheek to call other people dense? The problem isn't "he can go fuck yourself", it's "given the lack of evidence of him being innocent". You go on bitching how you want a law system that protects the citizen but then you want to take away from Zimmermann one of the basic guarantees of protection the law system gives the citizens: [blink:1tcvlngh]the presumption of innocence[/blink:1tcvlngh]. I just hope - and I mean it - noone will try to give you the same treatment you give Zimmermann.

Thank you for clarifing that, "He can go fuck himself!", is now a legal definition for life in jail... what would I do without you!

Yeah, keep strawmanning.

I swear, its amazing how quickly people are to bitch about strawmen, deflections and all that hoo-haa when its someone they disagree with... but if its someone they agree with they seem to have no problem. A little consistenency would be nice, but oh well...

People point out your strawmen because you've been the only one using them in this thread. Live with it.

Well, if I am a whiney, frustrated little boy, what does that make you? Are you a pretenious, hypocritical and dense moron who is so petty enough to throw such desperate attempts at "gotcha's!" (and fail miserably) at such a little kid who should be bellow your level? That you really feel the need to drag yourself down to my level? It sure seems that way...

Well, I will take "Whiney, frustrated little boy" because I find it offensive that people are so quick to defend a murderer... over what ever you are.

I'm not defending a murderer. I'm defending a person's right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. Not that I expect you to grasp this simple concept. And if this makes me a pretentious, hypocritical and dense moron so be it. You just have to hope there will be some other pretentious, hpocritical and dense morons defending your rights if you'll ever happen to be accused of something and some internet thugs elevates himself as jury, judge and executioner.

[Davka]

None of the things we KNOW he did for certain are illegal.

That's not quite true. We know he shot and killed Martin. Although that may have been in self-defense, it may also have been murder or manslaughter. Considering the circumstances, I would argue that manslaughter is a perfectly reasonable way to read this case.

What's more, it seems pretty clear that Zimmerman was engaging in vigilantism, which is certainly illegal. He may not have intended to kill Martin, but he most certainly did intend to take the law into his own hands, which he demonstrated the moment he ignored the 911 dispatcher and stepped out of his truck to follow Martin. Had he intended merely to keep an eye on Marin, he could have done so form a discrete distance. Instead, he chose to follow closely enough that Martin could easily ask him why he was being followed.

Zimmerman was NOT a member of Neighborhood Watch, and was NOT appointed by any person or group of persons. He was self-appointed, and had a long history of 'patrolling' his neighborhood and calling the police regularly. His own neighbors had complained more than once about his over-zealous patrolling of the neighborhood. Zimmerman has a history of vigilantism, and it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.

[PopeyesPappy]

What's more, it seems pretty clear that Zimmerman was engaging in vigilantism, which is certainly illegal.

No, it's not clear that Zimmerman was engaging in Vigilantism. At least not to those of us without magic crystal balls that allow us to go back in time and see things no one else saw and know things no one else knows.

Zimmerman was NOT a member of Neighborhood Watch, and was NOT appointed by any person or group of persons.

That's not want I'm reading. "George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old multi-racial Hispanic American, was the appointed neighborhood watch coordinator for the gated community where Martin was temporarily staying and where the shooting took place." As such it is perfectly reasonable for Zimmerman to approach someone he doesn't recognize and ask them who they are and why they are peering into houses. For that matter it would be perfectly reasonable for any member of a community to do the same be they neighborhood watch member or not.

[Davka]

What's more, it seems pretty clear that Zimmerman was engaging in vigilantism, which is certainly illegal.

No, it's not clear that Zimmerman was engaging in Vigilantism. At least not to those of us without magic crystal balls that allow us to go back in time and see things no one else saw and know things no one else knows.

Wrong. All you need to do is look at and listen to the public record. Zimmerman is a classic vigilante case.

Zimmerman was NOT a member of Neighborhood Watch, and was NOT appointed by any person or group of persons.

That's not want I'm reading. "George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old multi-racial Hispanic American, was the appointed neighborhood watch coordinator for the gated community where Martin was temporarily staying and where the shooting took place." As such it is perfectly reasonable for Zimmerman to approach someone he doesn't recognize and ask them who they are and why they are peering into houses. For that matter it would be perfectly reasonable for any member of a community to do the same be they neighborhood watch member or not.

Just for the record:

George Zimmerman not a member of recognized neighborhood watch organization

We have only Zimmerman's word that Martin was "peering into houses." Listen to the 911 recording again. It's pretty damning.

[Rin Hato]

Not saying he should've shot him dead, but the media was so quick to call it a case of racism and were so quick to get sympathy for the kid, they really jumped the gun.

Pfffftttttttahaha

[Colanth]

I think the reason why it got so much attention is because Zimmerman was acting as someone with a nominal bit of authority, the shooting having taken place on his patrol as part of the local, volunteer Neighborhood Watch.

Which gives Zimmerman exactly as much authority as the pebble he stepped on - absolutely none that any other citizen doesn't have.  Neighborhood watches have no actual "authority".  Zimmerman was (and probably still is) a wannabe cop, plain and simple.  Members of neighborhood watches have only one job - to call the police.  Not to attack people, not to prevent crime, not even to follow suspects.  JUST to dial 911 and report what they see.

Zimmerman over-reacted, over-responded and in most other states would have committed a few felonies.

[Seabear]

I think the reason why it got so much attention is because Zimmerman was acting as someone with a nominal bit of authority, the shooting having taken place on his patrol as part of the local, volunteer Neighborhood Watch.

Which gives Zimmerman exactly as much authority as the pebble he stepped on - absolutely none that any other citizen doesn't have.  Neighborhood watches have no actual "authority".  Zimmerman was (and probably still is) a wannabe cop, plain and simple.  Members of neighborhood watches have only one job - to call the police.  Not to attack people, not to prevent crime, not even to follow suspects.  JUST to dial 911 and report what they see.

Zimmerman over-reacted, over-responded and in most other states would have committed a few felonies.

Red HERRINGS! Getcha red herrings here folks! These are over a year old, but every time we try to sell them to ya, we pretend like they are FRESH, different ones. These red herrings fucking stink, but we still hope you'll swallow them.

[PopeyesPappy]

What's more, it seems pretty clear that Zimmerman was engaging in vigilantism, which is certainly illegal.

No, it's not clear that Zimmerman was engaging in Vigilantism. At least not to those of us without magic crystal balls that allow us to go back in time and see things no one else saw and know things no one else knows.

Wrong. All you need to do is look at and listen to the public record. Zimmerman is a classic vigilante case.

Zimmerman was NOT a member of Neighborhood Watch, and was NOT appointed by any person or group of persons.

That's not want I'm reading. "George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old multi-racial Hispanic American, was the appointed neighborhood watch coordinator for the gated community where Martin was temporarily staying and where the shooting took place." As such it is perfectly reasonable for Zimmerman to approach someone he doesn't recognize and ask them who they are and why they are peering into houses. For that matter it would be perfectly reasonable for any member of a community to do the same be they neighborhood watch member or not.

Just for the record:

George Zimmerman not a member of recognized neighborhood watch organization

We have only Zimmerman's word that Martin was "peering into houses." Listen to the 911 recording again. It's pretty damning.

Association with the NSA has no bearing on the legitimacy of the Twin Lakes neighborhood watch program. There are several national neighborhood watch organizations. There are no requirements to be registered with any of them. Most neighborhood watch programs aren't.  Zimmerman's neighbors asked him to organize a neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman coordinated the program with the Sanford police department. WTF else do you want?

[Jack89]

I think the reason why it got so much attention is because Zimmerman was acting as someone with a nominal bit of authority, the shooting having taken place on his patrol as part of the local, volunteer Neighborhood Watch.

Which gives Zimmerman exactly as much authority as the pebble he stepped on - absolutely none that any other citizen doesn't have.  Neighborhood watches have no actual "authority".  Zimmerman was (and probably still is) a wannabe cop, plain and simple.  Members of neighborhood watches have only one job - to call the police.  Not to attack people, not to prevent crime, not even to follow suspects.  JUST to dial 911 and report what they see.

Zimmerman over-reacted, over-responded and in most other states would have committed a few felonies.

It seems you're being a little deceptive.  As you probably know, citizens can do far more than you're letting on, regardless of the Neighborhood Watch bit.  If I see someone in my neighborhood who looks suspicious, I can go ask him what he's doing, and have on several occasions.  It usually ends up with me giving directions, but sometimes I get the "mind your own business" line or get ignored and the person walks off.  If I witness a felony, as a citizen, I can perform a citizen's arrest and detain an individual until police arrive.  I just have to have my ducks in order and can't violate anyone's rights.