Alan Henning killed by Islamic state killers

[pr126]

Sorry, only *some* Amricans declare themselves as a Christian nation.

No country in the EU  - maybe an exception is the Vatican, - but all are secular countries.  ( I live in the UK)

The situation is an American 'malady' from the mid-20th century.
The slogan on the money "in god we trust" started in the 60s if I remember correctly.

Anyway, "we in the west" is inaccurate, The 'west' doesn't stop at the Atlantic ocean.

[Hydra009]

They would probably off the head of the people who listened to the Arabic version of Air America. PR isn't entirely wrong, educaton is key, it just haa to be more subtle than a propaganda offensive. For starters, Saudi Arabia needs competition in the department of distribution of Islamic educational materials, poor mosques and madrasas shouldn't have only Wahabbists to turn to for their materials.

Focus our wrath on the worst and our beneficence on the best, and the middle will shift accordingly. It's not instant gratification, but it will work over time.

True.  But educating the muslim world is a very tall order to fulfill.  Many of these countries are politically unstable (understatement), very poor, and very much opposed to western influence.

The best we thing we can realistically do is support initiatives designed to bolster education, particularly the education of women, as well as humanitarian efforts.  Beyond that, we don't have much control.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

STOP selling the motherfuckers weapons.. END STOP and enforce arms embargoes through international treaties..

[Hydra009]

The slogan on the money "in god we trust" started in the 60s if I remember correctly.

1957 for paper money, 1864 for coins.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Anyway, "we in the west" is inaccurate, The 'west' doesn't stop at the Atlantic ocean.

Yeah....the UK is kinda east of the US isn't it? It's a bit of a dip in the pond wouldn't you say?

[Desdinova]

We have the tools. Internet, media, TV, radio all the wherewithal of mass communication.
Think the barrage of propaganda broadcasted n the cold war against communism.
All we lack is courage.

As you stated in a earlier post, the majority of these people are unreachable.  I don't see how we can educate them when they are so isolated and unwilling to listen to Western advice.  Why would they consider such overtures when throughout history the west has dealt with them at gunpoint?  No, I am afraid we have locked ourselves into a room with no exits.  Our foreign policy blunders in this region coupled with the nature of the Islamic faith have left us very few avenues of escape.  War seems inevitable.

[Solitary]

How can you reason with people that even kill people of the same faith they have? If people believe in the supernatural with magical and irrational thinking, they are beyond being civilized. The religion is just an excuse and justification to be and do insane deeds. If people believe in the irrational they are capable of acting irrationally, with, or without religion. Solitary

[pr126]

Nuclear Iran will be a game changer. All the other Muslim countries will want it too.
That's when the world goes to hell in a hand basket.

Stone age minds with nuclear weapons. Deterrent does not work with fanatics.
The Shiia eschatology, the return of the 13th imam, the Mahdi from the well.. Google it.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

STOP selling the motherfuckers weapons.. END STOP and enforce arms embargoes through international treaties..

But then what are we going to do with all our weapons?

[pr126]

Islam, while cannot be eradicated, it can be suppressed, tamed.

There is a precedent for it.
Read about Kemal Ataturk.
Please note: Ataturk did not reform Islam, he surpressed it by force.

The present Turkish president Recep Tayyip ErdoÄŸan is in the process of reislamizing Turkey.

[Cocoa Beware]

Islam is no more violent inherently than any other religion. To paraphrase Reza Aslan, who recently said something I have said on here for years... you could look at Buddhists in Myanmar that are murdering and raping Muslims and say that Buddhism is therefor a violent religion. It would be stupid and wrong, but you could do it.

Thats a shallow argument by a man who I dont find terribly honest. (I mean Reza of course not you. Im completely baffled by the stance youve taken here, but youve always seemed like a nice guy otherwise)

Mohammed was a warlord/pirate who personally decapitated people. Tragically, violence was ingrained into Islam from the very beginning.

It makes all the difference in the world that you can cite how Muslims are actually behaving in accordance to some of their teachings.

[stromboli]

Yeah....the UK is kinda east of the US isn't it? It's a bit of a dip in the pond wouldn't you say?

Orient basically means east. Long years ago the difference was defined as "occident and orient"  occidental means west and includes Europe and the UK. Orient technically refers to Asia or situated in the East. We now think in terms of  east, middle east, southeast asia and west, but Europe is definitely west of Asia.

[Shiranu]

Thats a shallow argument by a man who I dont find terribly honest. (I mean Reza of course not you. Im completely baffled by the stance youve taken here, but youve always seemed like a nice guy otherwise)

Mohammed was a warlord/pirate who personally decapitated people. Tragically, violence was ingrained into Islam from the very beginning.

It makes all the difference in the world that you can cite how Muslims are actually behaving in accordance to some of their teachings.

It is something I have said for several years now I here; I simply find the blaming of Islam a way to take away the personal responsibility of the follower for his actions.

Ultimately the reason violent acts are still committed in the Islamic world in the name of Islam is the same as why violent acts are committed in the name of Christianity in the Christian world; the root problems go beyond Islam/Christianity and into socio-economics. While religion is certainly a large part of it, the true root problems are (in my opinion, which I realize is not necessarily the most popular here) far more to do with educational standards, political corruption/agendas and poor economic and living conditions.

This is obviously not to say that people in the first world aren't susceptible to radicalization; however in that case it is generally only the "nutty" who are. It is far more easy to convince an uneducated farmer who is struggling to get by and has been fed propaganda since he was a child the idea of, "Fight for your religion!" than it is someone who has a broader education and a decent home and life. Not impossible, but much harder.

I agree on Mohammad as well, though I would argue if you read the Torah then you cannot really say it is any more rooted in violence than the Old Testament. As a kid I read the whole Old Testament... there is ALOT of God telling the Jews, "Yeah, go kill these people... rape and own their women as slaves, kill every male you see." and shit like that.

And finally I agree with PR... Ataturk set an example of how to deal with Islam; however it was not only by cracking down on Islam but by also vastly improving the educational and living standards of Turkiye that he pushed it into the VERY moderate Islam that it is today (The average Turks is about as Muslim as the average American is Christian... not very, more just in name only). I think both actions will be needed to "fix" Islam and make it comparable to Christianity today... the radicals will have to be arrested or exiled, and the living standards and educational standards of the Middle East will have to vastly improve.

Sadly I don't see that happening any time soon.

I realize this post has gone on waaaay too damn long, but one last thing; the main reason this is a big issue for me is that I have seen people harassed and receive all sorts of shit for being Muslim in the United States, and mostly because of this narrative we were fed by the media and the government that, "AAAAAH!!! The Muslims are out to get us! Be afraid, BE VERY AFRAID!". I realize most of (all?) of yall aren't doing that, however I always try to err on the side of caution on this topic simply because of how our society pushes the agenda of bigotry on this issue and sometimes it feels far more like parroting the fear that we have been told to have rather than a legitimate fear. Sweeping statements about Muslims is just not something I am comfortable with (but it is the internet, so I realize that means next to nothing :P).

[pr126]

Shiranu wrote:

Ultimately the reason violent acts are still committed in the Islamic world in the name of Islam is the same as why violent acts are committed in the name of Christianity in the Christian world; the root problems go beyond Islam/Christianity and into socio-economics. While religion is certainly a large part of it, the true root problems are (in my opinion, which I realize is not necessarily the most popular here) far more to do with educational standards, political corruption/agendas and poor economic and living conditions.

Socio-economics? What nonsense. Muslims don't even know what it means.

The jihadist fanatics, or as we like to call them "extremist" are awash with money and  stolen American weapons.

Try something else to defend Islam. Preferably without the moral equivalence.

Have you read and understood the Quran, hadiths and sira?
Do you know what sharia laws are?

How are you versed in Islamic theology?

The jihadist and their leaders repeatedly shout from the roof tops that they are doing all this for Allah, and Islam.
There you go with all the other clueless willfully ignorant people, trying to tell the world that you all know Islam better than Muslims.
Islam is peace, or would be if we non believers just be nice and stop talking about Islam.

Sheesh!

Lee Rigby

The murderer said on TV - while quoting the quran, sura 9,-  that he done this for Islam, Allah.
Immediately David Cameron goes on national TV declares that this murder has nothing to do with Islam.

Then we see the POTUS on TV in his speech declaring that ISIS is not Islam. What the hell is it, Mormons?



 

[SGOS]

the main reason this is a big issue for me is that I have seen people harassed and receive all sorts of shit for being Muslim in the United States, and mostly because of this narrative we were fed by the media and the government that, "AAAAAH!!! The Muslims are out to get us! Be afraid, BE VERY AFRAID!".

That is not at all what I hear on the news.  It's just the opposite.  I hear that radical Muslims are just a few bad apples.  Everywhere I go, I hear Islam is a peaceful religion.  People seem to be shouting it.  Politicians and News outlets are very politically correct about it.  I don't listen to FOX News, ever.  Never have.  So maybe they say Muslims are coming to get you on FOX News.  But that's not what I hear the vast majority of American thought shaping information sources.  This forum is not so kindly to Islam.  It's one place where the shouting of Islam is Peace doesn't seem to be having an effect.