Alan Henning killed by Islamic state killers

[Mike Cl]

Indeed Mike.
Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity,
Is the world willing to wait 600 tears for Islam to reform?
Can it wait?

pr I'm with you.  I wish the world did not have to wait. 

[SGOS]

Sorry, pr did not realize (I'm kinda new here) that you are the postings monitor.  I'll try to be better in the future.
A thought--I have not researched this idea yet--isn't Islam about 700 years behind christianty in development?  If so, does Islam behavior match what the christians were doing in the 1200 to 1300's ?

I don't think there is a natural progression from the invention of a religion, through a period of barbarism, followed by civilized tolerance and love.  Those attributes of religion are more likely cultural.  The reason Christianity is currently different than Islam even though they exist at the same moment in time is probably cultural.  If Islam is inherently more violent, it's likely that it was invented in a more violent society, and exists in a more violent society at this time.  Religion is not dictated down from various gods.  It's a reflection of society.  Of course, it's circular also.  We could say that society is also a reflection of its religion, although that's a harder case to make, I think.  But each reinforces the other in a self perpetuating cycle, which is difficult to break out of.

I doubt that Islam is violent because of the writings in the Quran.  It's more likely that the Quran is violent because Mohammed tended towards violence, and Islam caught on because Mohammed reflected the society at the time.  That starts the cycle, which gradually changes as society advances.  The problem is that the Mideast society is not advancing.  It's still tribal, and Islam also has a strong political influence on its society.

But there is no hard fast rule about how civilized a religion should be based on its age.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Posted by Mike C1This happens to be the Islam section of the forum, and the subject of the thread is Islam.
Christians do not use global "holy war" to rule the planet in the name of Jesus.
Please post your grievances on Christianity in the appropriate  section. 
Moral equivalence does not work well in  this context.

Dr You're Either With Us Or Against Us might disagree. The RWNJ ideologues were fully immersed in their own brand of holy war bullshit..

[Hakurei Reimu]

Indeed Mike.
Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity,
Is the world willing to wait 600 tears for Islam to reform?
Can it wait?

How do you intend to wipe out Islam so fast without committing the very evil that you deplore Islam for advocating â€" that is, killing scores of people wholesale for their beliefs?

It seems that "waiting for" Islam to reform is what is going to be necessary. It sucks, but that's what's going to be required.

[pr126]

Getting rid of Islam does not mean killing Muslims. Not at all.
Islam is an ideology.  An ideological warfare, And education is called for.

Two problems I see here,

First, it is closed, isolated society, still primitive and tribal, The rmajority are wirtually unreachable.
Second, we have got the means but not the will,  or the courage to impliment it

So it will be a slow, peacemeal, costly protraced localised war(s)  which will last for many decades, probably generations to come.

[Mike Cl]

Getting rid of Islam does not mean killing Muslims. Not at all.
Islam is an ideology.  An ideological warfare, And education is called for.

Two problems I see here,

First, it is closed society, still primitive and tribal, The rmajority are wirtually unreachable.
Second, we have not got the will,  or the courage to impliment it

So it will be a slow, peacemeal, costly protraced localised war(s)  which will last for many decades, probably generations to come.

One of the major problems with that assessment is that the West is shackled with it's own principles, which cause the same things as Islam.  They both use fear and guilt as major clubs.  I see the two religions as just as violent and just as faith based  (which means reason alone will not make a mark on the people who adhere to those faiths) as the other.  So, for christians to tell the muslims to tone it down a notch just will not work.  It's the pot calling the kettle black so to speak.  A secular message could work--but only with a huge amount of effort and energy and money--and just who is going to buy into that???? 

[aitm]

welcome back PR, I hope you are well. Good to see "read" you again.

[pr126]

Thanks.

[Desdinova]

Getting rid of Islam does not mean killing Muslims. Not at all.
Islam is an ideology.  An ideological warfare, And education is called for.

Two problems I see here,

First, it is closed, isolated society, still primitive and tribal, The rmajority are wirtually unreachable.
Second, we have got the means but not the will,  or the courage to impliment it

So it will be a slow, peacemeal, costly protraced localised war(s)  which will last for many decades, probably generations to come.

Hello pr, nice to meet you.  You say we have the means to educate.  How would we go about this?  The West has not exactly endeared itself to this region.  Why would the people there accept anything we say or do?  Wouldn't they just cut off our heads for our trouble?

[pr126]

We have the tools. Internet, media, TV, radio all the wherewithal of mass communication.
Think the barrage of propaganda broadcasted n the cold war against communism.
All we lack is courage.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Getting rid of Islam does not mean killing Muslims. Not at all.
Islam is an ideology.  An ideological warfare, And education is called for.

Two problems I see here,

First, it is closed, isolated society, still primitive and tribal, The rmajority are wirtually unreachable.
Second, we have got the means but not the will,  or the courage to impliment it

You're still being evasive about my direct question: how do you get rid of Islam without getting rid of their believers along with them as quickly as you want (less than 600 years)? How do you convince Muslims to drop their religion when we have a hard enough time getting the (supposedly) milder Christians to drop their own beliefs, when the majority of them are not virtually unreachable and we do not live in a closed, isolated society, and we certainly have the will and courage to do so?

[pr126]

I am sorry that my post (the one you quoted) is not clear for you.
That is all I will say.
What more do you want?

[Mister Agenda]

They care about world opinon very much. They seek to lure Western forces into a land war. It's all very calculated, imho.

[Mister Agenda]

Hello pr, nice to meet you.  You say we have the means to educate.  How would we go about this?  The West has not exactly endeared itself to this region.  Why would the people there accept anything we say or do?  Wouldn't they just cut off our heads for our trouble?

They would probably off the head of the people who listened to the Arabic version of Air America. PR isn't entirely wrong, educaton is key, it just haa to be more subtle than a propaganda offensive. For starters, Saudi Arabia needs competition in the department of distribution of Islamic educational materials, poor mosques and madrasas shouldn't have only Wahabbists to turn to for their materials.

Focus our wrath on the worst and our benefiscience on the best, and the middle will shift accordingly. It's not instant gratification, but it will work over time.

[Mike Cl]

We have the tools. Internet, media, TV, radio all the wherewithal of mass communication.
Think the barrage of propaganda broadcasted n the cold war against communism.
All we lack is courage.

I must disagree in this sense.  We, and the West, project ourselves as a christian nation.  The christian religion does not have the moral ground to stand on to be telling other religions how to act.  We can use all those tools you say we have, and it would not matter much.  Because it is like the parent who tells the child to do as I say and not as I act.  It is the height of hypocrisy, and it would be view as such.  If we (the US) want to tell others how to live maybe we should start at home first.