Perennial Philosophy

[Icarus]

The phenomenon of "ego death" exists. It's a tried-and-true experience we all have the potential of experiencing. This is no straw man. Of course, you may not have the patience for meditation, but if you really want to deny it, why don't you try ayahuasca? I doubt you'd come back talking about straw men.

Can't respond with an actual argument, so you decide to respond with a post that doesn't even attempt at address anything I said but goes on a wild tangent about nothing? Classy.

[Kafei]

Yeah it must be convenient to skip my first post. I wonder if that means you really have no idea what I was talking about, or actually you had some idea albeit tiny, but it didn't 'appeal' to you.

You do not know jack squad about the scope of the field you think some nut job has some 'theory' about.

I never skipped any of your posts. In one of your first posts, you said that Amanita muscaria is "natural LSD." That's nonsense. The psychoactive compound in Amanita muscaria is muscimol. It has absolutely nothing to do with LSD, so I question whether you know what you're talking about.

Simply put, to establish the connection between DMT and your natural highs, you need to catch DMT in the act. Until then, it's just bullshit.

Until then, it's not "bullshit," it's simply unproven. That's all. The research simply hasn't been done. It's not as easy to gain permission to do these things as you might think. Furthermore, I've also pointed out numerous times that the natural path, if it does exists (I believe it does, you doubt it), isn't the only path to inducing this phenomenon. Michael Hoffman goes over this at his website "EgoDeath.com" which I link in one of the initial paragraphs of the OP. John Allegro wrote about the possibility of Christianity holding its roots in the psychedelic mushroom. So, just because you deny the natural route, doesn't dismiss the concept of Perennial Philosophy. Perhaps you've heard of Jill Bolte Taylor's "Stroke of Insight." Her experience with a stroke, if you listen to her describe it, if you didn't know any better, you'd think she was describing an LSD experience.

Can't respond with an actual argument, so you decide to respond with a post that doesn't even attempt at address anything I said but goes on a wild tangent about nothing? Classy.

I did respond with an argument, it's simply that you cannot accept or reject the validity of it. If you believe this "ego death" doesn't exist, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Take up one of Terence McKenna's suggestions or take ayahuasca. I doubt you'd come back saying, "You can't respond with an actual argument?"

[Solitary]

Every time a person has an orgasm they have an ego death, that's why the French call it the little death.

[Solitary]

Now, Buddhism, on the other hand, is based not on a series of concepts but an experience. A phenomenon in consciousness that can potentially happen to anyone. It is not a "personal experience," because although this phenomenon is often spoken about in religious terms and given labels such as "samadhi," "satori," or "nirvana," it is often described as an "impersonal experience" or a "transpersonal experience" because there are motifs or universal themes within this peculiar experience that are not reducible to the individual.

You haven't read the original readings of Buddha have you? And to say a personal experience is transpersonal experience is not being one because the experience is a transpersonal experience because of motives and universal themes is ridiculous, and saying they are not reducible to the individual when they have them is not logical. Every culture has the same religious motifs and universal themes for all of recorded history for over 6,000 years, how does that equate to a universal and not individuals having the same experience because we are all wired the same way from evolution and universal experiences like the fear of dying etc.? Nirvana is not ego death according to Buddha, but freedom from desire.

[Icarus]

I did respond with an argument, it's simply that you cannot accept or reject the validity of it. If you believe this "ego death" doesn't exist, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Take up one of Terence McKenna's suggestions or take ayahuasca. I doubt you'd come back saying, "You can't respond with an actual argument?"

Well ya, you cannot accept or reject the existence of ghost, dragons, fairies, pixies, elves and unicorns. If it's your burden to prove they don't exist, why have you not spent all your money to prove they don't exist? I think you are a purple puss filled wart, prove to me you are not, until then I will tell people it's a fact (something I know would make you proud). It took me some time to warm up to your line of reasoning but now I'm starting to see the benefits.

Kafei is a purple puss filled wart until he can prove he is not, so sayeth the speaker of science.

[Kafei]

You haven't read the original readings of Buddha have you? And to say a personal experience is transpersonal experience is not being one because the experience is a transpersonal experience because of motives and universal themes is ridiculous, and saying they are not reducible to the individual when they have them is not logical. Every culture has the same religious motifs and universal themes for all of recorded history for over 6,000 years, how does that equate to a universal and not individuals having the same experience because we are all wired the same way from evolution and universal experiences like the fear of dying etc.? Nirvana is not ego death according to Buddha, but freedom from desire.

All the Buddha demanded from the devotee was nothing less than the extinction of the ego. "Desire" is translated from the Pali and Sanskrit languages, and he's not referring to the obvious desires that we think about today, as in the desire for wealth, the desire to be famous, the desire for food or sex. No, that's not what the Buddha was talking about. He was referring to something more subtle than that. He was referring to volition. The idea that you're the author of your actions. That you're the "doer" or the "thinker." If you can relinquish volition, then you will remove the veil of the ego. If you can manage to do this, then consciousness will shift towards this phenomenon, something closer to a "collective unconscious," but I feel even this Jungian term is insufficient to describe this.

There is a notion in Hinduism referred to as "non-duality." It is the dissolving of the subject-object duality that's spoken about so much in Philosophy of Mind. This is also referred to as the "mind-body problem." Non-duality in eastern philosophy is the dissolving between the subject of experience, and the objects that are being experienced, i.e. your life, your universe, etc. When you dissolve this boundary, then you have non-duality, a unity, oneness, etc. This is the experience of non-duality is what is also referred to as "nirvana" in Buddhism. Nirvana is translated "blow out." Meaning "blow out" desire or a more powerful word to describe this desire is volition. The illusion of the ego that thinks he or she is the "doer." This is also referred to as "nondoership" in Hinduism.

After all, where is the "I"? Where is the "me" that identifies itself as the ego? The "me" is always associated with the body and the body as seen through the microscope is nothing but a play of cells being created and destroyed. Even your skeleton renews itself after several years. So, the "ego" is this psychological construct, a conceptual image of yourself within the mind made up of your emotions, your thoughts, your memories, your dreams, hopes, fantasies, etc. You perpetuate this notion of "I" through memory. So, the Buddha tells the disciple to let go of the sense of "I," because this "I" is not what the mind thinks it is.

Well ya, you cannot accept or reject the existence of ghost, dragons, fairies, pixies, elves and unicorns. If it's your burden to prove they don't exist, why have you not spent all your money to prove they don't exist? I think you are a purple puss filled wart, prove to me you are not, until then I will tell people it's a fact (something I know would make you proud). It took me some time to warm up to your line of reasoning but now I'm starting to see the benefits.

Kafei is a purple puss filled wart until he can prove he is not, so sayeth the speaker of science.

But I'm not talking about fictional entities, but a tried-and-true phenomenon in consciousness, and that's the difference. I'm talking about something concrete, not something imaginative. However, your skepticism toward it is quite understandable. I know that if I hadn't had this experience for myself, I definitely would not believe it exists. I would be just as skeptical as you are, because I've sort of come to realize that, intellectually, most people cannot come to terms with a concept like this. They have to be exceptionally open-minded to consider the possibility that it does exist. Of course, you don't want to be so open-minded that the wind whistles between your ears, but nevertheless, I hold DMT in reserve for any hardcore doubters. Because if anything will convince you that this phenomenon does exist, smoking DMT will do it. The experience itself only last about 5 minutes. Surely, you have five minutes to invest in an experience that'll alter your entire ontology.

[Icarus]

But I'm not talking about fictional entities, but a tried-and-true phenomenon in consciousness, and that's the difference. I'm talking about something concrete, not something imaginative. However, your skepticism toward it is quite understandable. I know that if I hadn't had this experience for myself, I definitely would not believe it exists. I would be just as skeptical as you are, because I've sort of come to realize that, intellectually, most people cannot come to terms with a concept like this. They have to be exceptionally open-minded to consider the possibility that it does exist. Of course, you don't want to be so open-minded that the wind whistles between your ears, but nevertheless, I hold DMT in reserve for any hardcore doubters. Because if anything will convince you that this phenomenon does exist, smoking DMT will do it. The experience itself only last about 5 minutes. Surely, you have five minutes to invest in an experience that'll alter your entire ontology.

Why do you pretend you're scientifically minded then propose personal experience as a line of valid evidence? Why are you not open minded to learning something about biochemistry? Why do you completely ignore the enzyme that metabolizes DMT and learning about the tryptophan metabolic pathways? I am equally unwilling to open my mind to unfounded hypothesis as you are to learning about how the body really works. If you actually gave a shit about the idea you're pitching you'd be doing the research yourself.

[Kafei]

Why do you pretend you're scientifically minded then propose personal experience as a line of valid evidence? Why are you not open minded to learning something about biochemistry? Why do you completely ignore the enzyme that metabolizes DMT and learning about the tryptophan metabolic pathways? I am equally unwilling to open my mind to unfounded hypothesis as you are to learning about how the body really works. If you actually gave a shit about the idea you're pitching you'd be doing the research yourself.

Like I said, this is not a "personal experience" per se, and that is because this experience is often described as transpersonal or impresonal. It does arise out of the subjective experience, but this is not some kind of personalized experience. It's not a projection of the personal unconscious. And I have researched this stuff extensively. There is, instead, an experience of universal motifs and archetypal imagery that isn't necessarily specific to anyone. For instance, the fractal phenomena of the tryptamine-based psychedelics is a universal theme. That means, if you were to use these psychedelics in the shamanic fashion, you, too, would be witness to this fractal phenomena.

I'm completely aware of the metabolism of DMT, and the synthesis of tryptophan to DMT, etc. I don't really see how being aware of that knocks what I'm talking about. I'm going to have to assume you've never tried DMT judging by what you've laid out here. If you took the necessary precautions, would you at the very least be willing to experiment with something like N,N-DMT or ayahuasca or psilocybin mushrooms?

[Icarus]

Like I said, this is not a "personal experience" per se, and that is because this experience is often described as transpersonal or impresonal. It does arise out of the subjective experience, but this is not some kind of personalized experience. It's not a projection of the personal unconscious. And I have researched this stuff extensively. There is, instead, an experience of universal motifs and archetypal imagery that isn't necessarily specific to anyone. For instance, the fractal phenomena of the tryptamine-based psychedelics is a universal theme. That means, if you were to use these psychedelics in the shamanic fashion, you, too, would be witness to this fractal phenomena.

I'm completely aware of the metabolism of DMT, and the synthesis of tryptophan to DMT, etc. I don't really see how being aware of that knocks what I'm talking about. I'm going to have to assume you've never tried DMT judging by what you've laid out here. If you took the necessary precautions, would you at the very least be willing to experiment with something like N,N-DMT or ayahuasca or psilocybin mushrooms?

I have actually had my fair share of hallucinogens, that's what peaked my interest and future education in biochemistry. The difference between us is I'm not stupid enough to think the experience had any other significance than overloading my neurons with stimuli. You're trying to being a "sage" wisdom thing after you did some drugs and thought the things you were thinking were profound. They're not, you're just too lazy to figure it out.

[Sargon The Grape]

Like I said, this is not a "personal experience" per se, and that is because this experience is often described as transpersonal or impresonal. It does arise out of the subjective experience, but this is not some kind of personalized experience. It's not a projection of the personal unconscious. And I have researched this stuff extensively. There is, instead, an experience of universal motifs and archetypal imagery that isn't necessarily specific to anyone. For instance, the fractal phenomena of the tryptamine-based psychedelics is a universal theme. That means, if you were to use these psychedelics in the shamanic fashion, you, too, would be witness to this fractal phenomena.

I'm completely aware of the metabolism of DMT, and the synthesis of tryptophan to DMT, etc. I don't really see how being aware of that knocks what I'm talking about. I'm going to have to assume you've never tried DMT judging by what you've laid out here. If you took the necessary precautions, would you at the very least be willing to experiment with something like N,N-DMT or ayahuasca or psilocybin mushrooms?

Look buddy, I'm sure your perineum philosophy is absolutely fascinating to the hippies you obviously spend most of your time with, but those of us not currently sharing in your drug-coma know that everything you're saying is bullshit, and we're not all that interested in partaking in your delusions.

[Kafei]

I have actually had my fair share of hallucinogens, that's what peaked my interest and future education in biochemistry. The difference between us is I'm not stupid enough to think the experience had any other significance than overloading my neurons with stimuli. You're trying to being a "sage" wisdom thing after you did some drugs and thought the things you were thinking were profound. They're not, you're just too lazy to figure it out.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fair share" or if you've ever done it in a shamanic fashion meaning the way Terence McKenna described as the "heroic dose." I've only had a handful of these experiences, but I always shot for the "heroic dose." You see, the "ego death" phenomenon that I'm talking about is not elicited until you exceed a specific dose range, and just because you take a "heroic dose," doesn't necessarily mean you'll hit it. This is an art, it's an art, it’s something you coax into existence. I mean, you have to learn to make love, you have to learn to speak English. Anything worth doing is an art that is acquired. This is part of our birthright, perhaps the most important part of our birthright. These substances will deliver. It is the confoundment of psychology and science generally, and that’s why it’s so touchy for cultural institutions.

Concerning psilocybin mushrooms, Terence McKenna recommends for someone who weighs about 140 lbs to take at least 5 dried grams. Of course, if you weigh more, you want to go a little higher. It also helps if you fast. For instance, you'll skip breakfast and lunch, then have them for dinner. Smoking cannabis at the height of this experience also can greaten your chances of exceeding this threshold. Of course, a lot of people aren't comfortable taking that amount. It can feel, of course, like an eternity, but usually lasts about 6 to 9 hours depending on the potency and species of the mushrooms.

Most people take these things recreationally which usually means light doses. Because taking light doses will allow you to still be able to attend the concert or the party, etc. I'm talking about the shamanic fashion of taking these things. Shamans believed that mushrooms connected them to the divine, and would intentionally take these intrepid doses to elicit these states of mind. They took them spiritually, not recreationally as they're usually done today. I'm not sure what fashion you took them in, but when you take them in a shamanic fashion, this idea of "overloading neurons with stimuli" becomes exceedingly more and more expressive and represented as stranger and stranger phenomena in consciousness. I don't deny that this may be simply neural pathways igniting like a Christmas tree, but my point the entire time has been that these altered states of mind is at the root of the major religions.

In other words, as I said before, it may be the mind, but the mind lit up to such a degree that the experiential content becomes seemingly incomprehensible, and this seeming incomprehensibility has over the ages been interpreted as "God," "Brahman," "Allah," "nirvana," "satori," "samadhi," "shekhina," and more contemporarily as "peak experience," "Cosmic consciousness" and "ego death."

If you have the time, I'd like you to listen to the clip below. Listen through at least 5 minutes, if you don't mind.

Alan Watts - Psychedelic experience

Look buddy, I'm sure your perineum philosophy is absolutely fascinating to the hippies you obviously spend most of your time with, but those of us not currently sharing in your drug-coma know that everything you're saying is bullshit, and we're not all that interested in partaking in your delusions.

Those people who've not had the experience are simply prejudice, and I'm not sure how they feel anything they say about the experience holds any weight, because they've no idea what it's like. So, they're in no place to announce it bullshit, especially when I've pointed out very relevant facts. Nothing I've said has anything to do with delusion. Please, what exactly have I said that has given you the impression of delusion? You cannot point it out, 'cause I've done nothing of the sort.

[Icarus]

I'm not sure what you mean by "fair share" or if you've ever done it in a shamanic fashion meaning the way Terence McKenna described as the "heroic dose." I've only had a handful of these experiences, but I always shot for the "heroic dose." You see, the "ego death" phenomenon that I'm talking about is not elicited until you exceed a specific dose range, and just because you take a "heroic dose," doesn't necessarily mean you'll hit it. This is an art, it's an art, it’s something you coax into existence. I mean, you have to learn to make love, you have to learn to speak English. Anything worth doing is an art that is acquired. This is part of our birthright, perhaps the most important part of our birthright. These substances will deliver. It is the confoundment of psychology and science generally, and that’s why it’s so touchy for cultural institutions.

Concerning psilocybin mushrooms, Terence McKenna recommends for someone who weighs about 140 lbs to take at least 5 dried grams. Of course, if you weigh more, you want to go a little higher. It also helps if you fast. For instance, you'll skip breakfast and lunch, then have them for dinner. Smoking cannabis at the height of this experience also can greaten your chances of exceeding this threshold. Of course, a lot of people aren't comfortable taking that amount. It can feel, of course, like an eternity, but usually lasts about 6 to 9 hours depending on the potency and species of the mushrooms.

Most people take these things recreationally which usually means light doses. Because taking light doses will allow you to still be able to attend the concert or the party, etc. I'm talking about the shamanic fashion of taking these things. Shamans believed that mushrooms connected them to the divine, and would intentionally take these intrepid doses to elicit these states of mind. They took them spiritually, not recreationally as they're usually done today. I'm not sure what fashion you took them in, but when you take them in a shamanic fashion, this idea of "overloading neurons with stimuli" becomes exceedingly more and more expressive and represented as stranger and stranger phenomena in consciousness. I don't deny that this may be simply neural pathways igniting like a Christmas tree, but my point the entire time has been that these altered states of mind is at the root of the major religions.

In other words, as I said before, it may be the mind, but the mind lit up to such a degree that the experiential content becomes seemingly incomprehensible, and this seeming incomprehensibility has over the ages been interpreted as "God," "Brahman," "Allah," "nirvana," "satori," "samadhi," "shekhina," and more contemporarily as "peak experience," "Cosmic consciousness" and "ego death."

If you have the time, I'd like you to listen to the clip below. Listen through at least 5 minutes, if you don't mind.

Alan Watts - Psychedelic experience

None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about. You're trying to use a personal drug experience as proof of an unrelated physical phenomenon. You've read lots of peer reviewed papers right? Which of them rely on descriptive drug experiences as proof of anything other than the personal effect of mind altering substances on humans? None is the answer you're looking for.

[Sargon The Grape]

Those people who've not had the experience are simply prejudice, and I'm not sure how they feel anything they say about the experience holds any weight, because they've no idea what it's like. So, they're in no place to announce it bullshit, especially when I've pointed out very relevant facts.

I've never gotten drunk while driving. Am I wrong to judge drunk drivers? This argument of yours falls apart under cursory analysis.

Nothing I've said has anything to do with delusion. Please, what exactly have I said that has given you the impression of delusion?

What I'm saying basically is that in ancient times when people would have these type of experiences it was of such profundity that "God" was simply a metaphor to attempt to describe an ultimate state of consciousness.

"Ultimate state of consciousness" is a well-known shorthand for "I want to sound all mystical and deep and shit without knowing what the fuck I'm talking about." It's woo, and your honest belief in woo is a delusion.

You cannot point it out

I just did.

[the_antithesis]

Can we just ban him, please? It's what he wants. It's what we want. Let's just do it.

[Kafei]

None of this has anything to do with what we're talking about. You're trying to use a personal drug experience as proof of an unrelated physical phenomenon. You've read lots of peer reviewed papers right? Which of them rely on descriptive drug experiences as proof of anything other than the personal effect of mind altering substances on humans? None is the answer you're looking for.

There is scientific evidence that entheogenic drugs trigger mystical/religious experiences when they are administered in an appropriately conducive setting (the recent Johns Hopkins psilocybin study concluded this), likewise the work done by Dr. Rick Strassman also came to similar findings. And I'd also wager any further clinical trial would come to the same conclusion.

I've never gotten drunk while driving. Am I wrong to judge drunk drivers? This argument of yours falls apart under cursory analysis.

I would not compare psychedelics to alcohol, so this is simply a false analogy. I'm not even sure how you're equating this. I mean, drunk drivers aside, would you play a violin while driving, would you text while driving? I wouldn't equate this to the shamanic use of psychedelics. Shamans don't take ayahuasca then go driving cars.

"Ultimate state of consciousness" is a well-known shorthand for "I want to sound all mystical and deep and shit without knowing what the fuck I'm talking about." It's woo, and your honest belief in woo is a delusion.

It's not woo. I was borrowing the rhetoric of Alan Watts. He uses it "here" in his description of Brahman. Brahman, as I've been pointing out, is synonymous with the more contemporary term "ego death." It's in reference to a tried-and-true phenomenon in consciousness, not woo. The only reason why you think it's woo, is because you've never had this experience for yourself. So, you don't know how to think about it or to consider it. You've nothing in your experience to base it on and to extrapolate from, simply because you've never have had the experience. Now, just because you've no experience with this state of mind, doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it's "woo."

I just did.

*face palm* No, you only thought you did, because as I've mentioned before, you've nowhere in your experience to draw from to possibly relate to this phenomenon.