Perennial Philosophy

[Sargon The Grape]

The honest question I have for the OP is thus:
What the hell is your point?

I think the real question is:

How often do you crap and fart?

[Icarus]

It's not speculation anymore. It was recently discovered that N,N-Dimethyltryptamine is elaborated in the pineal gland of rats. I think it would be an uphill battle to say that it's not, too, elaborated in the human body given the evidence. It has concentrations in the liver, lungs, and other areas of the body. The only thing that had been speculated for a while is where it was coming from. You also wanted the source for REM, I recently had my web browser wiped, and lost all my bookmarks, unfortunately, but I do recall a comment here where Terence says the source of the study that was done in REM. If you give me time, I will find you the link to the study. When I said "may" account for the NDE phenomena, I meant precisely that. It's a very powerful speculation because high concentrations are found in cerebral spinal fluid. The speculation is as the dying brain is reaching for its last gasp for oxygen, it draws from oxygen stored in cerebral spinal fluid where you've been storing DMT throughout your life, and so the neat-death experience becomes this colossal DMT experience.

So, I would NOT say that the notion of DMT being produced in the human body is an unsupported assumption. The constituents necessary to make DMT all are found in the pineal gland. DMT is two enzymatic steps away from trytophan.

You've been here before haven't you?

Edit: Ya I remember you, or someone sockpuppeting your argument.

So ya, your entire argument is complete bullshit. If you had actually read the paper "Biosynthesis of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a melanoma cell line and its metabolization by peroxidases", you would have read that DMT is only one of many trace amines found in the human body, it's metabolized by monoamine oxidase A to make 3-indoleacetic acid. 3-indoleacetic acid is a common primary metabolite in the tryptophan metabolic pathway found here:



The concentration of DMT in the brain isn't even close to breaking the threshold dose, so no woo for you.

[Solitary]

Well, in a nutshell, it's that there is a phenomenon in consciousness that most people, atheists and theists alike, have not experienced, and, in fact, do not even realize exists. Religion is a kind of byproduct of this phenomenon. In other words, the founders of the major religions who've undergone this experience, i.e. Muhammad, Christ, Gautama, etc. were simply mortal men, as human as you and I, who've sometime in their lifetime had this colossal experience of "ego death," and when they went on to discuss their experiences, each became the founder of a religion. That's the point in a nutshell. Of course, if you actually take the time to read the OP, you'll find the evidence I present about this point-of-view. I'd really appreciate if you take the time to read it, and welcome any feedback on it.

Gautama (Buddha) never had this or claimed divine intervention. This is BS from the Hindu religious that have made him a god, and the various schools of Buddhism that have been influenced by other religions. He never prayed, or believed in a God. He never even had any rituals to practice. He only had suggestions to live a better life. He thought about life and suffering in reality, not superstitious nonsense. It's also debatable that Buddhism is even a religion. By the common definition it is not, just like atheism is not. Without people, a God, or gods, there is no religion. Solitary

[Kafei]

You've been here before haven't you?
The concentration of DMT in the brain isn't even close to breaking the threshold dose, so no woo for you.

No, I haven't been here before, and your information is out-dated. As I stated before, a 2013 study found DMT in microdialysate obtained from a rat's pineal gland, providing evidence of endogenous DMT in the mammalian brain with concentrations reaching that of a possible threshold dose. It doesn't require much DMT to actually be propelled into these colossal altered states, you know.

[Kafei]

Stop telling me what lecture I should read. Dennis Mckenna doesn't count. You don't count. I don't count.
WHY DO ALL SCIENTISTS IN THE FIELD SEE HIS WORK AS PSEUDOSCIENCE?

Well, this is a close-minded response. Why wouldn't Dennis McKenna count? He's got multiple PhDs in various fields, and meets these concepts with great criticism and has legitimate details to point out. Not all scientists believe Terence's concept is pseudoscience. If you'd simply refer to the link, perhaps you'd see why.

[Kafei]

Close minded. Yeah that must be it. Among all of those scientists from many different countries dedicating their lives to solve human evolution are just closed minded to some great explanation.
Let's see those scientist. Link.

Dennis McKenna on "Stoned Ape" hypothesis

If you really want to put it to the test, try and understand the theory first. I link to the 43m and 28s mark here. Dennis discusses the concept in a way that might shed some light of how this is a possible factor that is overlooked by most evolutionary biologists and scientists. I'm quite sure not all scientists believe it to be pseudoscience. You want me to link you to some scientists that don't believe so? Where's your statistical data or your link showing that all scientists do? All I ask is if you meet this with a little bit more open-mindedness than you've had so far, and just listen through a bit into the link I left above this paragraph.

Gautama (Buddha) never had this or claimed divine intervention. This is BS from the Hindu religious that have made him a god, and the various schools of Buddhism that have been influenced by other religions. He never prayed, or believed in a God. He never even had any rituals to practice. He only had suggestions to live a better life. He thought about life and suffering in reality, not superstitious nonsense. It's also debatable that Buddhism is even a religion. By the common definition it is not, just like atheism is not. Without people, a God, or gods, there is no religion. Solitary

I've already answered this in the OP. I have the impression based on the feedback so far that no one has actually taken the time to read through the post. It seems as though the accumulation of responses that I've gotten here have been by those who most likely skimmed through the post, perhaps other people's responses to it, etc. No one seems to be replying as though they understand, and it's because they're basing their judgement on other people's summaries in their posts when they, too, skimmed through the OP.

I don't really have a problem. I do realize it's quite long, but obviously the people in this particular forum do not like reading beyond five or so paragraphs. I admit, my post is probably five or so screens, but it's not tediously and overwhelmingly long.

[Icarus]

No, I haven't been here before, and your information is out-dated. As I stated before, a 2013 study found DMT in microdialysate obtained from a rat's pineal gland, providing evidence of endogenous DMT in the mammalian brain with concentrations reaching that of a possible threshold dose. It doesn't require much DMT to actually be propelled into these colossal altered states, you know.

What? The paper I cited was published in 2014. Sockpuppet.

[DunkleSeele]

It's not speculation anymore. It was recently discovered that N,N-Dimethyltryptamine is elaborated in the pineal gland of rats. I think it would be an uphill battle to say that it's not, too, elaborated in the human body given the evidence.

Bollocks. The fact that traces of DMT have been found in rats' pineal glands doesn't tell us anything about the human body, plain and simple.

It has concentrations in the liver, lungs, and other areas of the body. The only thing that had been speculated for a while is where it was coming from. You also wanted the source for REM, I recently had my web browser wiped, and lost all my bookmarks, unfortunately, but I do recall a comment here where Terence says the source of the study that was done in REM. If you give me time, I will find you the link to the study. When I said "may" account for the NDE phenomena, I meant precisely that. It's a very powerful speculation because high concentrations are found in cerebral spinal fluid. The speculation is as the dying brain is reaching for its last gasp for oxygen, it draws from oxygen stored in cerebral spinal fluid where you've been storing DMT throughout your life, and so the neat-death experience becomes this colossal DMT experience.

So, I would NOT say that the notion of DMT being produced in the human body is an unsupported assumption. The constituents necessary to make DMT all are found in the pineal gland. DMT is two enzymatic steps away from trytophan.

It is an unsupported assumption, until it's effectively found out that the pineal gland in humans produces it. Simple as that.

I also love how you skipped my other points. As I said, zero facts and evidence. In fact, your theory is built exactly like every other new-agist bullshit cult:
1. Make wild assumptions and pass them as scientific facts.
2. Produce walls of regurgitated alphabet soup just to give the impression that your theories are really, really well thought out and profound.
3. Post a couple of videos/articles/books by some fruitcake "supporting" your claims and claim the authors are worldwide recognised authorities.
4. Fill each and every wall of word salad with terms like "mystical", "transcendental", "uniqueness", etc.
5. Throw in a few made-up references to Jesus/Muhammad/Buddha/etc, asserting that they really, really, really did what you claim.

Et voila, mesdames et messieurs, you have a new-age cult!

Now tell me Kafei, when are you going to sell DVDs and books?

[the_antithesis]

Because I start out here saying that the "God of LSD" is not what this is about.

I got bored and stopped reading before I got that far.

[Kafei]

Bollocks. The fact that traces of DMT have been found in rats' pineal glands doesn't tell us anything about the human body, plain and simple.It is an unsupported assumption, until it's effectively found out that the pineal gland in humans produces it. Simple as that.

Even peer-review has to follow a certain politics, and the reason why there isn't any studies done on humans is because this is a schedule I illegal substance in the U.S. and also highly illegal in most other countries. That's why the permission was for use on rodents. You simply showed me a chart on tryptophan metabolism. I'm not sure how this counters the notion I'm talking about. I don't see how this is an unfounded speculation. Given the evidence, it's now just a matter of time before they confirm it for pineal gland in human beings. It was found to be produced in the pineal gland of rats in significant amounts. It's very likely that the human pineal gland, too, produces DMT. Why is this such an issue? We know it's produced in the body, there's traces of it in the liver, in the lungs, in cerebral spinal fluid, etc. Why are you so resistant to the possibility of the pineal gland containing DMT? Is it simply because the pineal gland has always been associated with the "third eye," the "ajna chakra," the "seat of the soul"?

Dennis McKenna on Endogenous DMT

Now from his words why he pursued this study:

Basically, he was high and thought it could be a good thing to make a study of it. He also saw the 2012 Apocalypse in I CHING Cards under its influence.

I'm assuming you've quoted Wiki. Well, it's somewhat obscure there, because Fischer did work with light doses approaching mid-range doses. But even if you argue against the "visual acuity" portion of Terence's rap, there's other factors that are more potent in the hypothesis. Do you think our hungry ancestral apes would have stopped to a light to mid-range dose? Of course not! I'm guessing you never took the time to listen to Dennis at all. It's a very legitimate factor, psilocybin, after all, is a neurotransmitter that has a lock-and-key fit to our serotonergic receptor sites. There's a slew of archaeological evidence and historical evidence for mushroom use going back millennia. Terence McKenna, in fact, majored in Art History when he did attend school. If you'd simply go back and check out the link, maybe you'd gain a better perspective on this. I link to a separate area in the link below, but it may be better to refer back to the original link I sent you because it's the spot where they really go over it.

Dennis McKenna on "Stoned Ape hypothesis"

[Kafei]

Gautama (Buddha) never had this or claimed divine intervention. This is BS from the Hindu religious that have made him a god, and the various schools of Buddhism that have been influenced by other religions. He never prayed, or believed in a God. He never even had any rituals to practice. He only had suggestions to live a better life. He thought about life and suffering in reality, not superstitious nonsense. It's also debatable that Buddhism is even a religion. By the common definition it is not, just like atheism is not. Without people, a God, or gods, there is no religion. Solitary

I think you're missing the point. My opinion is that Gautama was simply another human being who'd undergone this phenomenon in consciousness. I believe religions like Hinduism and Buddhism have surrounded themselves around this phenomenon. Hindus had always used ascetic means, but Gautama came along and realized all that was unnecessary, and so meditation as the relinquishing of volition became the discipline of the eight-fold path. I'm not talking about God, but instead a very God-like state of consciousness which Hindus referred to as "savikalpa samadhi" or simply "samadhi," Buddhists refer to it as "nirvana," but more contemporarily I believe "ego death" has become the preferred name for this phenomenon. There's also "Cosmic consciousness" which was used by Richard M. Bucke. Bucke also believed in a possible perennial philosophy, he goes into the experiences of historical figures in his magnum opus.

[Kafei]

I got bored and stopped reading before I got that far.

Don't worry. I don't think anyone here at this particular forum reads long posts. Either everyone has ADD or we've really shifted over to a visual/audio culture from the print culture that Marshall McLuhan wrote about. So far, many of the replies I've had were questions that could've had been answered if the person had simply read the OP in its entirety.

[Icarus]

Don't worry. I don't think anyone here at this particular forum reads long posts. Either everyone has ADD or we've really shifted over to a visual/audio culture from the print culture that Marshall McLuhan wrote about. So far, many of the replies I've had were questions that could've had been answered if the person had simply read the OP in its entirety.

Being full of shit usually has a profound effect on the attention span of people reading what you have to say. Why haven't you read the 2014 study "Biosynthesis of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a melanoma cell line and its metabolization by peroxidases" published in Biochemical Pharmacology?

[Kafei]

Being full of shit usually has a profound effect on the attention span of people reading what you have to say. Why haven't you read the 2014 study "Biosynthesis of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a melanoma cell line and its metabolization by peroxidases" published in Biochemical Pharmacology?

I have read that. I'm not sure how it counters what I'm talking about. We may not know completely the mechanisms for these type of experiences. DMT may play a role, it may not. I happen to believe it does if it is possible to induce it naturally. There may be a natural route to this experience, but it's also possible that the founders of the major religion may have taken a shamanic path to it. For instance, "soma" in Hinduism is often associated with the psychedelic mushroom, likewise "The Last Supper" of the Buddha is also heavily speculated to have been psychedelic mushrooms. Not to mention many other examples as in "The Tree of Life" of Egyptian mythology has recently been identified as the Acacia nilotica which is rich in DMT, The Elusinian mysteries of ancient Greek times has been thought to be an ergotized beer which would induce an LSD-like experience, Muhammad shivering and fasting in the cave is an example of an ascetic path to inducing this type of experience, and many other examples where these states of mind are intertwined with the origin of these religions.

Another thing I'd like to add, I wish I could give you a link to the point in a talk where Terence mentions this, but I remember hearing a talk by Terence McKenna where he claimed he had a dream where he was handed a pipe filled with DMT, smoked it inside the dream, and had a full-on, very vivid re-experience of the DMT flash he'd see at the height of an actual DMT experience. If this is true, then this is a perfect proof that the brain is very capable of producing these experiences on-the-natch. I don't believe anything about this is "woo" or pseudoscientific, but a tried-and-true phenomenon we all seem to have the potential for. I'm not sure if you've read the post, judging by your most recent comment, I'm going to have to wager not, but you'll find that I'm not arguing for "woo" or the "supernatural," but a logical and neuroscientific way of explaining such phenomena.

[DunkleSeele]

Even peer-review has to follow a certain politics, and the reason why there isn't any studies done on humans is because this is a schedule I illegal substance in the U.S. and also highly illegal in most other countries. That's why the permission was for use on rodents. You simply showed me a chart on tryptophan metabolism. I'm not sure how this counters the notion I'm talking about. I don't see how this is an unfounded speculation. Given the evidence, it's now just a matter of time before they confirm it for pineal gland in human beings. It was found to be produced in the pineal gland of rats in significant amounts. It's very likely that the human pineal gland, too, produces DMT. Why is this such an issue? We know it's produced in the body, there's traces of it in the liver, in the lungs, in cerebral spinal fluid, etc. Why are you so resistant to the possibility of the pineal gland containing DMT? Is it simply because the pineal gland has always been associated with the "third eye," the "ajna chakra," the "seat of the soul"?

Dennis McKenna on Endogenous DMT

First of all, it wasn't me posting that chart. Get your facts right.
Second, you really don't get the point, do you? DMT being produced by the human pineal gland is, so far and at best, an unsupported hypothesis, but you try to to pass it as fact. This is the same old, intellectually dishonest tactic used by all woo peddlers like you. We've seen it hundreds of times, and we're not impressed.

I'm assuming you've quoted Wiki. Well, it's somewhat obscure there, because Fischer did work with light doses approaching mid-range doses. But even if you argue against the "visual acuity" portion of Terence's rap, there's other factors that are more potent in the hypothesis. Do you think our hungry ancestral apes would have stopped to a light to mid-range dose? Of course not! I'm guessing you never took the time to listen to Dennis at all. It's a very legitimate factor, psilocybin, after all, is a neurotransmitter that has a lock-and-key fit to our serotonergic receptor sites. There's a slew of archaeological evidence and historical evidence for mushroom use going back millennia. Terence McKenna, in fact, majored in Art History when he did attend school. If you'd simply go back and check out the link, maybe you'd gain a better perspective on this. I link to a separate area in the link below, but it may be better to refer back to the original link I sent you because it's the spot where they really go over it.

Dennis McKenna on "Stoned Ape hypothesis"

And how does that qualify him as an anthropologist? Answer: it doesn't.