Perennial Philosophy

[Kafei]

I can't take Terence Mckenna even as seriously as I can take Robert Graves. I'd choose Graves over Mckenna, because he is a poet and his actual aim is criticism of human civilisation, although he wrote like a magus and his reaction was mostly to academics and poets.

Terence McKenna was just as much of a wordsmith. He was extremely articulate. Most people who are introduced to his ideas usually judge it quite hastily. Perhaps if you heard him distill it, he could probably make more sense than the brief introductory to the hypothesis I've laid out. If you have time, he thoroughly goes into it in the first hour of this lecture here, the following seven hours are a discussion on it.

Terence McKenna - Plants, Consciousness and Tranformation

Taking that drug would be an interesting experience. That's all.

I'd wager it'd be more than just that. For some people, it entirely changes the direction of their life, and is considered to be the most profound experience of their life. Doesn't matter if you've sky-dived, kayaked, scuba dives, gave birth to children, visited the moon, etc. So, saying that it'd be merely an "interesting experience" is a gross understatement.

The fact that human perception can be altered fundamentally with a drug, doesn't have any validity on how its general culture evolved which can be explained by evolution in many different levels and phases it went through.

I beg to differ. I agree that it can be explained on many different levels, one level is this aspect that Terence proposed. Terence McKenna's brother actually went on to get multiple PhDs in various fields and is probably one of Terence's greatest critic. So, it's interesting to hear his point-of-view on Terence's ideas, and I'll leave you with a link to a talk where he does this, and you don't have to listen to this entire piece. Simply because you reject the notion doesn't make it untrue, likewise I understand it doesn't make it true, either, but it is a legitimate factor to be considered. I'll leave the link below, but if you do decide to listen to it, I ask if you at least make an effort to listen at least 10 or more minutes through from the point I link at, because I link to a specific spot in the piece, the 43 minute and 28 second mark.

Dennis McKenna on "Stoned Ape"

Are you aware what you claim here defies everything from anthropology, human evolution, to theories of cultural history...everything that is accumulated as a result of the last 500 years?

How so? It's one thing to say that, but you've got to at least explain why you believe that. As far as I can discern, it seems to be quite congruent with "everything accumulated as a result of the last 500 years."

Are you aware that you are claiming that we evolved from erectus to sapiens because we were addicted to a drug that altered our brain chemicals fundamentally?

I don't see what exactly what you're challenging here in this exclamation, but yes, I realize that's the claim (with the exception of the addiction portion), and it's not my claim, by the way. It was Terence's concept. I link to a thread that thoroughly goes over this better than your hasty jugdement, because these substances aren't addicting. The fact that you'd say that means that you don't understand the hypothesis. I'd recommend that thread, because there's links there that you could find that goes over this stuff quite thoroughly. The link I left initially in this post is helpful, too, but I truly doubt you'd listen through to the hour in which Terence distills his concept quite meticulously judging by you've met with it thus far.

OK. at this point it will sound lame, but are you high?

No, like I said, psychedelics aren't an addicting substance, and "high" is usually associated with the use of cannabis. The height of the psychedelic experience is usually referred to differently. Sure, you might some say "trip" or even "tripping balls," but if you take a Terence McKenna-recommended dose you're going beyond the "tripping balls" point, then the phenomenon you're attempting to induce is more contemporarily known as "ego death." There's something to Google.

[Kafei]

Even if they are suppose to be archetypes they are still subjective experiences and not objective experiences. also, phycology and psychiatry are not science accept for neurology, and even that is open to speculation. Everything you talk about can be done by stimulating the brain, which is an objective object, but the experience is still a subjective one. You are using word gymnastics and the fallacy of Non sequitur which not logical. There are no connections between those experiences and the past or objective reality accept the human brain. Are you a Deepak Chopra fan? Solitary

I'm not a Deepak Chopra fan. Never read anything of the guy, but you misconstrued my response. Yes, it is a subjective experience, but the experiential content within the subjective experience has this impression of being universal in that there are common motifs and themes within the experience. Dr. Rick Strassman, in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," actually intravenously dosed volunteers with pure N,N-DMT. Lo and behold, when question closely after their experience, each of them had overlapping metaphors to describe their experience. A lot of people used the phrases "fourth dimensional" or "beyond dimensionality." Also, I mentioned that fractals are a common motif in this experience, of course, most people aren't aware of the notion of fractals, and so they might opt for other synonymous concepts as in kaleidoscopic, mandalic, geometric patterns, etc. So, if you're accusing me of verbal gymanstics of the sort you've described, then I apologize for any ambiguity here because you've misconstrued what I've said. I'll stick around the forum, because I really do enjoy the feedback and I hope we can continue to have this exchange as clearly as possible to avoid any further miscommunication.

[DunkleSeele]

The evidence is at the very beginning of the second post. I did try and make this succinct, but unfortunately, this is as succinct as I could make it. I apologize for its lengthiness, but I assure you, each paragraph makes a valid point.

OK, then let's take a look at the first paragraph of the second post, shall we?

If you want a physiological explanation as to what may be going on, Dr. Rick Strassman speculates in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" that this colossal transformation in consciousness may be the result of an natural induction of endogenous N,N-DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine).

Speculations and "maybe" aren't either evidence or facts.

Most atheists here might be familiar with DMT, but if you're not, I'll briefly go into some details about it. N,N-DMT is a naturally occurring neurotransmitter that is elaborated in the pineal gland also called the "third eye" gland.

Bold, unproven assertion. So far, neither evidence nor facts.

It's now known that concentrations of DMT spike during the REM stage of sleep

Source?

and also during a NDE (near-death experience),

Nope, just a conjecture. No facts or evidence yet.

so DMT may account for the "white light" or the "I saw my life flash before my eyes" phenomena.

"May". Where's the fucking evidence?

Now, another detail that must be emphasized is that DMT is also considered the world's most powerful entheogen known to exist in nature. Even more powerful than LSD, salvia, psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, or PCP is DMT

Wrong, there are more powerful ones. Quite short on facts, aren't we?

and there it is right behind your eyebrows.

See above. Unsupported speculation.

DMT is also a schedule I illegal substance in the U.S. and also highly illegal in most countries

Finally a factual statement. It doesn't help your case, though.

despite the fact that it occurs naturally within the human brain.

Look above. Unsupported assumption.

[Solitary]

I have been in surgery seven times and my ego was dead, as well as my consciousness, and there was nothing, and I was a nothing, and only my body existed. I've also had OB's while meditating, and in major stress situations, which are experiences that my brain produces, there is nothing spiritual about them at all.  Solitary

[Solitary]

I'm not a Deepak Chopra fan. Never read anything of the guy, but you misconstrued my response. Yes, it is a subjective experience, but the experiential content within the subjective experience has this impression of being universal in that there are common motifs and themes within the experience. Dr. Rick Strassman, in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," actually intravenously dosed volunteers with pure N,N-DMT. Lo and behold, when question closely after their experience, each of them had overlapping metaphors to describe their experience. A lot of people used the phrases "fourth dimensional" or "beyond
dimensionality." Also, I mentioned that fractals are a common motif in this experience, of course, most people aren't aware of the notion of fractals, and so they might opt for other synonymous concepts as in kaleidoscopic, mandalic, geometric patterns, etc. So, if you're accusing me of verbal gymanstics of the sort you've described, then I apologize for any ambiguity here because you've misconstrued what I've said. I'll stick around the forum, because I really do enjoy the feedback and I hope we can continue to have this exchange as clearly as possible to avoid any further miscommunication.

I never misconstrued what you said, we have all evolved the same brain structure that produces the same effects, it's not rocket science to figure out why people all have the same experiences.  I even had religious experiences in my life, but I am not fooled into thinking they are more than my brain creating them. We all have our delusions, but some of us realized what they are: ignorance, not knowledge.
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/delusion.shtml

Delusions And Mental Illness
By Rusty Rockets
We have entered an age where vast numbers of people are moving away from scientific explanations and putting all their energies into believing alternative viewpoints, such as Intelligent Design (ID). The ID movement is so strong that it is slowly being introduced into schools around the globe and given equal weight with the teaching of evolution. The manner that ID is being sold as an alternative to evolution seems to be exploiting a fundamental attribute characteristic of humans: belief creation. But just how do we form our beliefs, and how do we know if a belief that we hold is wrong?
One way that researchers are currently exploring this area is by looking at people who suffer from various mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, where delusions experienced by patients are believed to be true. By taking such an approach, medical researchers can determine whether the belief that a person holds meets the criteria of a delusion. Of additional interest is the fact that some of this research takes in other scientific and philosophical disciplines in an effort to answer some very fundamental questions.
Mental illness is defined as a condition that causes serious abnormality in a person's thinking or behavior. From what is known of the brain, it seems that mental illness is caused either by direct physical damage to the brain itself, or a number of psychological disorders that have developed for one reason or another over time. In the past, these differences have distinguished the fields of study involving the brain and cognition. Traditionally, psychiatry, psychology and other disciplines have played an important role in understanding how the mind functions, while neuroscience has mapped and observed how different areas of the brain interact.

In the past, philosophy of mind has not been considered a serious option in regard to the diagnosis and observation of mental illness. But the inclusion of philosophy is becoming more common as psychiatry, psychology and neuroscience advance. The advancement and convergence of the various brain sciences demonstrates how difficult it is to reconcile the physical and psychological processes of the brain, and that the evidence currently available is far from adequate in answering many of the big questions about the brain, such as delusions in the mentally ill.

A rudimentary explanation of delusions is that people strongly believe something to be true in the face of evidence to the contrary, giving rise to false beliefs. These false beliefs can originate in many ways, but more usually they arise because someone may misinterpret another's actions or misread their intentions. But how do we know that these closely held beliefs are actually false? Before discussing that aspect, it might be useful to look at some more obvious examples. Having a "phantom" limb is a condition where a person believes that they can still "feel" a limb long after it has been amputated.

The Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, Professor Vilayanur Ramachandran, even refers to cases where it is not uncommon for amputees to believe that their phantom limb waves, picks things up and feels pain. This suggests that limbs are "wired" to other networks within the brain, so that in the case of an amputee the brain continues to register the limb as still present. Ramachandran explains that these sensations are a result of an exact representational "map" of the body, known as the Penfield Homunculus, telling the brain how the body is constructed. The phantom limb comes from the Penfield Homunculus not having had time to readjust after a limb has been removed.

Though the above example does not constitute a mental illness as such, it does raise questions of how much autonomy is present in any person's mind over what we can say we think about. It does seem that much of our thinking relies on "hardwired" neural networks that continue to function long after they have outlived their usefulness. This is probably somewhat true of the way that we hold our own beliefs on cultural phenomenon like religion. This becomes easier to notice when the belief system of a person begins to override or take control of a person's mind, which manifests as a mental illness.

Schizophrenic people are just one of many examples where visions and the irrational behavior that they may provoke are something that they find nigh on impossible to control. "Unlike normal people, the schizophrenic can't tell the difference between their own internally-generated images and thoughts versus perceptions that are evoked by real things outside," says Ramachandran. Bill Fulford, Professor of Philosophy and Mental Health in the Department of Philosophy, University of Warwick, says that a: "schizophrenic patient may be well aware that their experience is odd." Unlike the person with the phantom limb, however, it is considerably more difficult, if not impossible, for the schizophrenic to independently verify that they are actually experiencing a delusion, especially if a certain level of paranoia accompanies the delusion.

Solitary

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Ommmm..ommmmm..ommmmm.. OK.. I'm enlightened. Time to get drunk.

[GSOgymrat]

I'm not a Deepak Chopra fan. Never read anything of the guy, but you misconstrued my response. Yes, it is a subjective experience, but the experiential content within the subjective experience has this impression of being universal in that there are common motifs and themes within the experience. Dr. Rick Strassman, in his book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule," actually intravenously dosed volunteers with pure N,N-DMT. Lo and behold, when question closely after their experience, each of them had overlapping metaphors to describe their experience. A lot of people used the phrases "fourth dimensional" or "beyond dimensionality." Also, I mentioned that fractals are a common motif in this experience, of course, most people aren't aware of the notion of fractals, and so they might opt for other synonymous concepts as in kaleidoscopic, mandalic, geometric patterns, etc. So, if you're accusing me of verbal gymanstics of the sort you've described, then I apologize for any ambiguity here because you've misconstrued what I've said. I'll stick around the forum, because I really do enjoy the feedback and I hope we can continue to have this exchange as clearly as possible to avoid any further miscommunication.

I agree with Solitary- I would be surprised if there were not similarities. People have the same basic neural structure and when you introduce a psychoactive substance many people are going to have similar reactions. Why should I believe the experience you are describing, this transcendent sensation with universal themes, is an accurate assessment of consciousness and the universe and not just a neurological reaction with common elements because all human brains are basically similar? Having not had this experience myself, why should I believe your interpretation of this experience? Is it more rational for me to believe that you and others have unlocked a special perception of reality or that human brains experience these sensations when exposed to certain chemicals and/or stimuli?

[Kafei]

Source?
Nope, just a conjecture. No facts or evidence yet.

It's not speculation anymore. It was recently discovered that N,N-Dimethyltryptamine is elaborated in the pineal gland of rats. I think it would be an uphill battle to say that it's not, too, elaborated in the human body given the evidence. It has concentrations in the liver, lungs, and other areas of the body. The only thing that had been speculated for a while is where it was coming from. You also wanted the source for REM, I recently had my web browser wiped, and lost all my bookmarks, unfortunately, but I do recall a comment here where Terence says the source of the study that was done in REM. If you give me time, I will find you the link to the study. When I said "may" account for the NDE phenomena, I meant precisely that. It's a very powerful speculation because high concentrations are found in cerebral spinal fluid. The speculation is as the dying brain is reaching for its last gasp for oxygen, it draws from oxygen stored in cerebral spinal fluid where you've been storing DMT throughout your life, and so the near-death experience becomes this colossal DMT experience.

So, I would NOT say that the notion of DMT being produced in the human body is an unsupported assumption. The constituents necessary to make DMT all are found in the pineal gland. DMT is two enzymatic steps away from trytophan.

[Kafei]

What's up with all these New Agers trying to prove God exists because of subjective experience that don't prove anything about reality. This is still religious BS in a new wrapper. This is why I don't like philosophy like I did when younger. It is why Einstein was correct after showing that his theories were tested in objective reality. The mathematics of quantum mechanics works even if it isn't understood, but to translate this not understanding, which is ignorance, therefore God did it, is disingenuous at best.  Solitary

You're missing the point here. This is not an argument for the existence of God, and the fact that you think it is means you've foully misinterpret what Perennial Philosophy is.

The philosophia perennis or Perennial Philosophy affirms that a direct insight into the nature of Reality is a universally human possibility -- whether it be gained after practice of spiritual disciplines and study of scriptures or through a wholly unanticipated illuminating experience of union with God or the Ultimate. A result of such awareness is the confidence that we have devolved from a single Source and the process of spiritual development is completed and perfected in our return to that One.

Yes, that is the crux.

And what is the That which the Thou can discover itself to be?

Well, to put it in Hindu terms, that art thou means you are the Brahman. Of course, this experience has only been discussed throughout the centuries in a religious context. It's only until recently that this phenomenon has taken more contemporary names that disassociate itself from religion, such as Richard M. Bucke's "Cosmic consciousness" or the term "ego death." Here's a talk by Alan Watts that goes into this topic a bit.

Alan Watts - Fear of Enlightenment

How can one attain inner certainty of That?

How else? By having the experience, of course. I mean, nothing will convince you short of having the experience itself, and that is because we're, as I pointed out in the OP, intellectually set-up to doubt this. It's a phenomenon in consciousness which most people, atheists and theists alike, do not realize exists.

Perennial Philosophy offers a seemingly paradoxical answer. The obstacle to unitive knowledge of That is obsessive consciousness of being a separate self. Attachment to I, me, or mine excludes unitive knowledge of God.

Well, this is why it's called "ego death." I don't necessarily see the paradox here. Perhaps you should elaborate on this one.

What help is available?

What help is availble... to have this experience? If that's the question, then obviously it's the shamanic tools that have been left for us if one can simply avail themselves to them.

When is it available? Consider the following affirmations:

JOEL GOLDSMITH: "I am in union with the divine Intelligence of the past, the present and the future. No spiritual secret is hidden from me . . . There is this transcendental Being within me which I am and to which I have access forever. . . . That infinite divine Consciousness of God, the Consciousness of the past, and the present and the future, is my consciousness at this moment."

ALDOUS HUXLEY: "We are on a return sweep towards a point corresponding to our starting place in animality, but incommensurably above it. Once more life is lived in the moment. The life now of a being in whom love has cast out fear, vision has taken the place of earthly hope, selflessness has put a stop to the positive egotism of complacent reminiscence and the negative egotism of remorse.

"The present moment is the only aperture through which the soul can pass out of time into eternity, through which grace can pass out of eternity into the soul, and through which love can pass from one soul in time to another soul in time."

It's always available, and there's many paths to it, but if you truly wish to have an avenue to speak from about this, then having the experience for yourself would do that.

[Kafei]

Why did NOT any of Mckenna's hypothesis' take place in mainstream? Why isn't he included in human evolution and taught in universities?

Why didn't any scientist work on his hypothesis? Why he is the only one who to notice this factor, among all these anthropologists, evolutionary scientists? 

Why is his work considered as pseudoscience?

You know, that link I left where Dennis McKenna gives his criticism on this, he answers all of these questions. I mean, if you're truly interested, I'd listen to that one in particular. Terence did teach this view at The Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California. The lecture was entitled "Plants, Consciousness, and Transformation," which I linked you to. Within the first hour of that audio tape, he thoroughly distills the "Stoned Ape Hypothesis."

[Kafei]

I never misconstrued what you said, we have all evolved the same brain structure that produces the same effects, it's not rocket science to figure out why people all have the same experiences.  I even had religious experiences in my life, but I am not fooled into thinking they are more than my brain creating them. We all have our delusions, but some of us realized what they are: ignorance, not knowledge.

This is precisely a misconstruing of what I've said. Did you read the portion where I use the analogy of the tv in my OP? I think that would be better to describe this phenomenon than an article on delusion. I'm not talking about delusions. I appreciate the feedback and I want to make it quite clear as to what I'm talking about.

Yes, I even say in the OP that it may be the mind, I never deny this point. But what I add is the mind lit up to such a degree that the informational content becomes seemingly incomprehensible, and it's this seeming incomprehensibility that throughout the ages has been interpreted as "God," "Brahman," "the soul," "Allah," "nirvana," "satori," "samadhi," and more contemporarily as "ego death" and "Cosmic consciousness." I'd really appreciate it if people read the full post before skimming through and responding, but I guess I'm going to have to settle for people just jumping through it.

[Moralnihilist]

All of these walls of text are making me(a PhD in history) go:




The honest question I have for the OP is thus:
What the hell is your point?

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Perennial sounds too much like perineum for me to take seriously anyway.

Oh, if y'all don't know what a perineum is, it's everything between a pussy and an asshole.

[Kafei]

I agree with Solitary- I would be surprised if there were not similarities. People have the same basic neural structure and when you introduce a psychoactive substance many people are going to have similar reactions. Why should I believe the experience you are describing, this transcendent sensation with universal themes, is an accurate assessment of consciousness and the universe and not just a neurological reaction with common elements because all human brains are basically similar? Having not had this experience myself, why should I believe your interpretation of this experience? Is it more rational for me to believe that you and others have unlocked a special perception of reality or that human brains experience these sensations when exposed to certain chemicals and/or stimuli?

Well, yes, I do believe it's more rational to believe the latter here, and you admit to not having this type of experience. You see, a good example I'd suggest is that of Jason Padgett. Here's a guy who was some regular joe until he had a brain injury that caused his brain to overcompensate in areas that are usually dormant in most people. As a result of this, he became a mathematical prodigy with the ability to visually see fractals in every direction. This experience, as I mentioned, will induce this. This is why so many people report the kaleidoscopes, the mandalas, the geometric patterns; that's because they are referring to fractals. Even Jason took a while to realize that the geometric patterns he was, in fact, witnessing are fractals.

While it's true that this experience is inducing the effect on a similar substrate we all possess, i.e. the brain, that in no way is a reduction of this experience. Imagine if you underwent an experience in which all neural pathways in your brain were lit up. You'd have an impression of a panesthesia, an impression that you were undergoing all experience at once. I'll quote Terence to give a metaphor:

I don’t think you could discover consciousness if you didn’t perturb it, because as Marshall McClune said, “whoever discovered water, it certainly wasn’t a fish”. Well, we are fish swimming in consciousness; and yet we know it’s there. Well, the reason we know it’s there is because if you perturb it, then you see it; and you perturb it by perturbing the engine which generates it, which is the mind/brain system resting behind your eyebrows. If you swap out the ordinary chemicals that are running that system in an invisible fashion, then you see: it’s like dropping ink into a bowl of clear water â€" suddenly the convection currents operating in the clear water become visible, because you see the particles of ink tracing out the previously invisible dynamics of the standing water. The mind is precisely like that, and the psychedelic is like a dye-marker being dropped into this aqueous system. And then you say, “Oh, I see â€" it works like this… and like this.” - Terence McKenna

Undergoing such an experience is quite profound. It's not like witnessing a waterfall or a birth or death. It's more like, by metaphor, you've had every experience, heard every song, seen every movie, thought every thought over and over infinite of times. It's a reality-dissolving, catagory-reconstructing, mind-boggling phenomenon that consciousness can undergo, and it's available for you in the here and now. And it's this experience, I believe, that people have been having over millennia which have laid the very basis of such notions as the divine or the soul, etc.

Graham Hancock on the topic of Psychedelics

[Kafei]

The honest question I have for the OP is thus:
What the hell is your point?

Well, in a nutshell, it's that there is a phenomenon in consciousness that most people, atheists and theists alike, have not experienced, and, in fact, do not even realize exists. Religion is a kind of byproduct of this phenomenon. In other words, the founders of the major religions who've undergone this experience, i.e. Muhammad, Christ, Gautama, etc. were simply mortal men, as human as you and I, who've sometime in their lifetime had this colossal experience of "ego death," and when they went on to discuss their experiences, each became the founder of a religion. That's the point in a nutshell. Of course, if you actually take the time to read the OP, you'll find the evidence I present about this point-of-view. I'd really appreciate if you take the time to read it, and welcome any feedback on it.