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Happiness

Started by Contemporary Protestant, May 11, 2014, 05:10:41 PM

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Mermaid

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on May 11, 2014, 09:25:38 PM
How does bonding with another species help, if a hunter gather were concerned with how their prey feels, they wouldn't survive
This is a false statement. Are we concerned with the welfare of the animals we eat today? If so, why?

I think you need to read more about biology and evolution, and look at it in a MUCH broader sense than you are now.
Your questions are good ones, and answers to them can be found in bodies of research and in basic biology texts. I could spend hours explaining the role of behavior in survival and natural selection, but I could not do as much justice to the topic as a search of peer reviewed papers on these topics.
Try to work out some thought experiments. For example, what scenarios involving bonding with other species result in survival success for one or all species involved?

Google "symbiosis" for a very basic example.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

ApostateLois

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on May 11, 2014, 10:21:46 PM
I watched your videos and must ask why

Why does this behavior exist, science explains how, and I'm asking why

The video explains why. The lioness, for unknown reasons, had been rejected from her pride and was now on her own. Lacking the protection and companionship of other lions, and fearing for her life (because other lions would attack her if they could), she latched onto a baby oryx as the one thing that could provide her with company. It was apparently a form of obsessive-compulsive behavior, as she later adopted five more oryx babies after the first one was killed by a lion. Animals have the same sorts of emotions, fears, and hangups as humans. There are many, many examples of interspecies relationships, so this lioness with the oryx baby shouldn't surprise us much.
"Now we see through a glass dumbly." ~Crow, MST3K #903, "Puma Man"

Contemporary Protestant

Why do animals and people have these feelings, not how or what, but why is life so social

Shiranu

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on May 12, 2014, 03:10:25 PM
Why do animals and people have these feelings, not how or what, but why is life so social

:confused:

A. Because that's how they evolved, and not all animals are so social; there are many animals that are solitary and, when they encounter each other outside of reproductive scenarios (and often during) will kill one another.

B. 5 humans, lions, bears, wolves, what have you are going to live longer than one human, lion, bear, wolf on it's own. It gives you a better chance of taking down your prey or defeating/scaring a potential predator.

You also asked what the benefit of humans caring about animals was... look up our history with the dog, the cow, the horse to see how much of mankind's history up until about 100 years ago was absolutely dependent on these creatures to make society run smoothly.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Contemporary Protestant

Yeah mongols (horses). I was specifically referring to prehistory when saying why do people benefit from animals

La Dolce Vita

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on May 12, 2014, 03:10:25 PM
Why do animals and people have these feelings, not how or what, but why is life so social

You are very confused here, most likely due to indoctrinated religious beliefs that makes you believe in a guiding force. Take this baseless assumption away, and you will see that the way you phrased the question is absurd. (Also, people are animals, mammals, primates, apes - and yes, I made that list extremely short).

How = why.

The reason these feelings developed is because it was beneficial for a species survival. If the parents of more advanced life forms (i.e. mammals like us) did not take care of their children, their species would not survive. Therefor only species with these feelings could survive. As empathy was a great and beneficial trait, it continued to be succeed - but evolution is not smart. It is not a thinking entity. Therefor said feelings of empathy can expand, and often do expand, beyond your own species - often to other animals that in some way resembles you - or look cute to you.

The logic can be simplified to "I like/am attached to this person/creature" or "This person/creature is like me". Empathy rarely comes with an absolutely off-switch. We are related to all living things, and this is also why all animals act so much like us (to varying degrees). They have emotions too, and we can feel these emotions as we can feel the emotions of those in our own species. You must have noticed that we often personify non-human animals. We attribute human emotions to them - and why not? To a certain degree they have them. In the case of vegetarians their principles or emotions are bound by them recognizing a larger group as important than that of others. A cannibal who eats the members of other tribes might be equally confused as to why you aren't like him/her, as you are by the vegetarians. It's all about who you consider worthy of life and respect, and to what degree they are worthy of life and respect.

Note that socialization can turn these things off, at least to a certain degree, or it can encourage them. Culture is a truly powerful tool that to a huge degree determines behavior.

Shiranu

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on May 12, 2014, 03:31:32 PM
Yeah mongols (horses). I was specifically referring to prehistory when saying why do people benefit from animals

Horses were around long before the mongols (and you might want to look at European history as well).

Humanity began to really get into the domestication around 9,000 B.C.E. (it was going on long before that, evidence of bee keeping goes back to at least 13,000 B.C.E.), while we had been domesticating plants since around 11,000 B.C.E. . Domesticated animals provide food, clothing, protection and companionship amongst a whole other slew of useful benefits.

I don't particularly understand what you are asking, because there is no way you cant see how useful animals have been to humanity with even the most basic of history knowledge...
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Contemporary Protestant

I will clarify

How could we evolve to use other animals to our benefit? Animals of course help the human race but how could we have evolved beyond the desire to kill and eat our animals.

How did it happen within the context of evolution, pre homo sapien sapien

Shiranu

QuoteHow could we evolve to use other animals to our benefit?

We are intelligent creatures, infact it's our intelligence that kept our species from dying out a long, long time ago.

Quote... but how could we have evolved beyond the desire to kill and eat our animals.

We generally don't have a desire to kill and eat our own children, so it is obviously possible to form emotional bonds for us. Add that onto our intelligence and I don't see why it is outrageous to believe that we saw the benefit of animals and didn't just mindlessly eat them on site.

"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Contemporary Protestant

Good answers

Where did this intelligence come from? Like how did humans just happen to surpass the other animals in regards to intelligence

La Dolce Vita

All animals are intelligent to a certain degree, we just happened to follow a path that relied more on problem solving. We weren't the fastest, or the strongest, so we needed tools and ideas. We needed to find and create weapons. Some of our closest relatives also do this to a certain degree.

Mr.Obvious


QuoteWhere did this intelligence come from? Like how did humans just happen to surpass the other animals in regards to intelligence
Most likely due to a combination of factors.
Our ancestors were a common ancestor of modern apes. So for simplicity's sake, I'll state they were apes.
This tribe of ape like most apes lived in the jungles. However it had to leave it's old habitat. Perhaps because it was chased out by other apes. Perhaps because it ran out of food. ... I'm not sure
Regardless they entered open fields
In the savannah there were no abundance of trees to keep safe from the hunters on the ground. So these apes, like other primates already relatively intelligent creatures, learned that by standing up, they could better spot the predators. Those that could stand up better and look better for threats survived to procreate. Later those who could scuttle a few steps whilst walking had a greater chance for survival. And so along the line our ancestors learned to walk up straight, changing their fysiology drastically and allowing for different actions like carrying of food. It changed their lungs and posture, requiring a greater intake of air which allowed for slightly better develloped brains.
With their hands increasingly free for other things and facing threats on a daily basis, those with the best develloped brains could make the most of their environment. Those who learned to use simple tools, like sticks, again survived to procreate and became more dominant.
Enter climate fluctuations from about a million years ago. In this time of relative changing climate and thus surroundings, those who' had better brains had better chance of adapting to this uncertain environment. Again, those who had the best brains survived to procreate.
Some also point to our change in diet to include meat to have had positive influence, but I'm not too certain about this.

Bottom line, our brains and thus our capacity for intelligence evolved like everything else. Those with the best set of a particular way to adapt to the environment survived to procreate; giving more chance to pass on the random mutation that gave them a better chance of surviving. It's no different than 'why can cheetahs run so fast ' or 'why do wolves have sharp teeth' or 'why do chameleons blend into the environment so well' or 'why do ants form hives'. It's all evolution, the same core-process with different random mutations in different non-random environments.
"If we have to go down, we go down together!"
- Your mum, last night, requesting 69.

Atheist Mantis does not pray.

Contemporary Protestant


PickelledEggs

Quote from: Contemporary Protestant on May 12, 2014, 03:50:19 PM
I will clarify

How could we evolve to use other animals to our benefit? Animals of course help the human race but how could we have evolved beyond the desire to kill and eat our animals.

How did it happen within the context of evolution, pre homo sapien sapien
Think about this for a second.

You are in the wilderness alone with just some rags for clothes. A tiger comes to eat you. Do you think you would have a good chance of getting away/spotting it before it spots you?

New scenario. Same thing, but you have a group of friends. You're cave people so it's socially acceptable that you're wearing a loincloth instead of pants. And you're in the wildereness and there is the tiger again. Which scenario do you think gives you a better chance to survive? The one where you are all alone? or the one where you are in a group? And why do you have a better chance to survive?

Contemporary Protestant

I understand the benefit of other people, not other specimen