Morality

[Bibliofagus]

I removed it because it was irrelevant, you addressed the issue and I thought that I should remove that post since the issue was addressed

Sorry

No need for an excuse. I'm off to bed. Curious about what you think about the stuff I posted about deicide and the christian origins of anti-semitism.

[Contemporary Protestant]

I'll restate my point

Christianity isn't that bad because many movements came from Christianity such as abolition in Britian and America

Atheism doesn't have a good track record either, Stalin, pol pot, Mao Zedong, hiro hito (maybe)

I don't think using the actions of people to judge their ideals isn't fair
Especially considering the teachings of Jesus advocate peace

[PopeyesPappy]

Guess that's why he needed a sword...

[Contemporary Protestant]

When did Jesus use a sword on another human being?

[Mr.Obvious]

Without positing this as proof, the most likely hypothesis to me would be that morality is a product of evolution. It could be an effect of group selection; in broad terms those groups that learned to survive together, survived, passing on their proneness to rely on eachother, trust eachother, work together etc. to the next generation. All animals that live in herds or packs would show some 'basic' sense in morality according to this hypothesis. Which we do find; apes and elephants mourn their dead, wolves and piranha's work together but don't eat their own pack or school, all manner of animals make sure they protect their young even at the cost of their own safety or even lives, ... It's a logical evolutionary trait; a proneness to take care of kin, especially one's offspring, ensures the chances for survival of that offspring. So if an ancient ancestor had a slight proneness to safeguard his or her offspring, due to for example a random mutation in the DNA of that creature which influenced it's hormones, that offspring which had a greater chance of having the same mutation itself would have a greater chance for surviving. Same goes for those creatures that learn to trust eachother and work together. If they make groups, those groups who depend on eachother, have a greater chance of breading and furthering the herd or pack or flock or ... The difference between us and other animals seems to me to most likely be due to our added brain-capacity. With the more our brains evolved, giving us a better chance for survival, the more our capacity to think about our behaviour towards one another grew.

[Johan]

Everyone - For future reference, I will not acknowledge ad hominem attacks, if you disagree with me, fine, but that doesn't give you the right to call me an idiot

Umm... yeah here's the thing. Everyone has the right to call anyone an idiot if they feel so inclined. I get that you might not like it, but that's just how life works. Sorry champ.

[Mermaid]

Mermaid - I think everyone inherently knows right from wrong, for example children (as young as 3) know that lying and stealing is bad, dogs even hide when they do something wrong. Despite this inherent sense of good, people choose evil. The bible isn't the source of my morality, however it does help me understand my faith better.

Thanks for explaining this. I have respect for you and your beliefs.

[Bibliofagus]

I'll restate my point
Christianity isn't that bad because many movements came from Christianity such as abolition in Britian and America.

Slavery was condoned with the bible in hand as well. For hundreds of years. It was only after the enlightenment when christians suddenly started reading moral stuff in their bible. Just as christians abolished the idea of deicide - a concept that has agian led to pogroms and exclusion for hundreds of years - only after the holocaust took place and the horrificness of it was evident.  Coincidence? I think not.

Atheism doesn't have a good track record either, Stalin, pol pot, Mao Zedong, hiro hito (maybe)
I don't think using the actions of people to judge their ideals isn't fair

Atheism isn't about ideals. It's just disbelief in god. Stalin, pol pot and Mao did have ideals, they came from a thing called 'Communism' (and also theories about nation building). Their ideals (an egalitarian society) have everything to do with their actions. Would they have redistributed wealth if they were not communists? I think not. Beliefs and ideals inform actions.

Especially considering the teachings of Jesus advocate peace

I'm afraid you are mistaken. Jesus teaches that the only way to salvation is through belief in him. Actions do not matter in christianity. If Hitler believed in the end, he would be in heaven, unlike Anne Frank I might add. Giving mass murderers a free ticket to salvation, while sending their victims to hell is nowhere near advocating peace.

[Bibliofagus]

When did Jesus use a sword on another human being?

Hitler probably killed nobody himself as well.
Your jesus advocated division. "I come not to bring peace, I came to bring the sword".
He also condoned slavery by the way.

[Contemporary Protestant]

God's  Grace isn't a get out of jail free card, its an on going process. Avoiding hell is not the message of the bible, the point of Christianity is to pursue a relationship with God. Actions still matter in Christianity

Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot killed in the name of Communism, and communism considers religion the opium of the masses, so they tried to remove religion from their society

Just because religious people can make mistakes doesn't change the fact that religion is a force for good
Societies without religion have all been terrible (communist societies)


Jesus was referring to the sword of the gospel, and division from the wicked, those concepts are better developed in 2 corinthians and Ephesians 6

[Jason78]

Just because religious people can make mistakes doesn't change the fact that religion is a force for good
Societies without religion have all been terrible (communist societies)

That "fact" is debatable.  I would say that the opposite was true and that religions cause far more harm in the world than good.

[Bibliofagus]

God's  Grace isn't a get out of jail free card, its an on going process. Avoiding hell is not the message of the bible, the point of Christianity is to pursue a relationship with God. Actions still matter in Christianity

Okay. Many christians disagree with you, but no matter.
Why did jesus need to die on the cross in your version of christianity? Original sin is no biggy?
Also: Anne Frank believed she was pursuing a relationship with jahweh. Are you saying the new testament is just an addendum meant to make pursuing this relationship somehow easier? That jesus - contrary to what he said about the subject - is not the only way to salvation/relationship with god?

Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot killed in the name of Communism, and communism considers religion the opium of the masses, so they tried to remove religion from their society.

You are missing the point. Their - communist - ideals and beliefs informed their actions. Just like christian beliefs and ideals have informed actions. Like pogroms agains jews throughout the ages. Christian inspired anti-semitism being widespread in Europe in the 30's was the context that made the holocaust possible. In Salt Lake city many gay kids are living in the streets because their parents kicked them out for being the way they were born - again, because of religious beliefs.

Just because religious people can make mistakes doesn't change the fact that religion is a force for good.

Tell that to the jews who died in the last 2 millenia because of christian pogroms. Tell it to gay kids in Saoudi Arabia and Iraq.

Societies without religion have all been terrible (communist societies)

It's the - communism - that made these societies terrible. In communism a lack of freedom is inherent, and that is what makes them terrible. If Marx would have been a christian who thought christianity would empower the masses, atheism and other religions would have been persecuted.

Maybe you could name a terrible atheist society that was not communist? That would be more convincing.

Jesus was referring to the sword of the gospel, and division from the wicked, those concepts are better developed in 2 corinthians and Ephesians 6

Funny how jesus specifically said that he came to divide families.
I'll look up the quotes though, thanks.

[Drummer Guy]

Sociopaths still know right from wrong, they choose to ignore social norms and lack emotion

But they don't "inherently" know it.  It is not something they are born with, it is something that they are taught.

[Hydra009]

Christianity isn't that bad because many movements came from Christianity such as abolition in Britian and America

Atheism doesn't have a good track record either, Stalin, pol pot, Mao Zedong, hiro hito (maybe)

Comparing your group's best against another group's worst.  (And apparently forgetting about the multitude of pro-slavery Christians in the process) Sounds fair.

Societies without religion have all been terrible (communist societies)

Except you know, all those largely atheistic countries that aren't communist.

[Shiranu]

Societies without religion have all been terrible (communist societies)

Tell that to the countries that rank highest on human rights and quality of life... you know, the one's that have the highest rates of atheism?