I Believe God Exists

[stromboli]

Page 17 of crap from Gasparov, and counting...

Lol JP you might make it. 

We should start a pool. Winner gets a prize like Internets, or something.

[josephpalazzo]

I'm game.

[Bibliofagus]

I lost some of my possibly imaginary money today. I'm not sure how to feel about it after reading all of this.

[Berati]

Casparaov, you are dodging the burden of proof problem. So I will try once again to get you accept what has been yours all along.
You said

I start from scratch. Assuming nothing and desiring no particular outcome over any others. I then ask what I can know.
The answer to this question is simply, "I exist".

Fine, we all agree you can start with I think therefore I am.

I do not know that my perceptions are true, even my own hands and body could be false perceptions. I find that I am able to doubt absolutely everything except my own existence.

Doubt away.

From there my only real next logical move is solipsism

Absolutely wrong! While it is valid to doubt existence, to conclude non existence is illogical at this point. I will point out that  while you may say this, you behave differently from your stated belief. You have been asked several times to jump out of a building to show faith in your claim that the world is not real. You don't because it's not logical to gamble your very existence on an unprovable philosophical position. So you take the only logical step available. You don't jump.

The only way you or anyone else can (and does) proceed logically from "I think therefore I am" is "I feel therefore I'm real"
Even if it's an assumption it is the only logical assumption you can make.

Here is an example:
You awake at the edge of cliff with no knowledge of how you got there. You know you exist because you can think. You know nothing else for sure. What is your next logical step? If you said to assume nothing is real (solipsism) and jump off the cliff you are wrong, yet this is the argument you are making.

If you awake at the edge of the cliff with another person (who may be an illusion) and you want to convince that person to jump over the cliff with you... You have the burden of proof to convince that other person that everything you are both feeling and observing is an illusion.

YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF!

[Bibliofagus]

I always think it's funny when solipsists engage themselves on the internets.

[josephpalazzo]

BTW, the Cartesian "I think therefore I am" is no proof of existence simply because if you are a simulation (an illusion), saying the "I think therefore I am" by a fictional character is still a fictional statement.

BAZINGA

[Bibliofagus]

We'll easily make the required amount of pages for Joseph to win.
We don't even have to post on topic, as there is no way to know if anyone is reading at all!

[leo]

This forum isn't real . You are all part of my dream about posting in a atheist forum. Sorry reality is harsh.

[stromboli]

Leo isn't real. Ignore him.

[leo]

Leo isn't real. Ignore him.

Wait a minute. You guys aren't real because you are part of my dream. You are telling me that  I'm also part of someone's dream? This is getting confusing. 

[josephpalazzo]

Weird... whenever I come to this thread, I feel a certain chill over my shoulders... must ghosts...

[stromboli]

No, wait... Leo is imaginary and not of the material world.....which means he's real!

Bump. Let's see......31-18=13 Hell, don't stop now!

[Feral Atheist]

This forum isn't real . You are all part of my dream about posting in a atheist forum. Sorry reality is harsh.

Yes, reality can be harsh, but I'm good with that.  Beats the hell out of believing in fairy tales and having reality kick your ass down the road because you can't accept it.

[aitm]

I would hate to see casper dismissed so soon, even though this thread is a wishy washy wasteland. Hopefully he will enter some other conversations and we can move along to his other "entertaining" thoughts. But yeah, this thread is about to die.

[Casparov]

You can't prove matter, that's too hard for you  but readily, without any proof, you  assert: MIND IS IMMATERIAL...

I shall consider the alternative:

Mind is material. It therefore exists independent of mind. It has a weight and a mass that is measurable.