I Believe God Exists

[leo]

Last reply on 30!

I'm tempted to lock this ...

but with 450 posts... idk

.   


Okay. So that will do it.

[rex]

Which god?

[Berati]

If you were speaking into a mirror this sentence would make sense.

No, it is you who are making the illogical leaps to immaterialism.
Casparov: I think therefore I am
Casparov: I feel all this "stuff"  but I will ASSUME that it is all an illusion (Even though I will live the rest of my days acting as though all this "stuff" is materially real.)
Everyone else: Show us how you can transfer or store information without material
Casparov: If my ASSUMPTION is correct, then you are merely interpreting information from my unknown and unprovable source that is immaterial.

In Consciousness, the only thing we can know with certainty exists.

And consciousness is always tied to the material brain. No examples exist of it being otherwise. Drugs (material) can be used to effect the neurons and chemicals (materials) of a brain and therefore affect consciousness. Destruction of the brain always leads to destruction of the consciousness.
"Casparovs answer: If my ASSUMPTION is correct, then you are merely interpreting information from my unknown and unprovable source that is immaterial.

"I feel therefore it's real." is no justification for Materialism. I agree that what we experience is "real", all experience is "real", and I am an Idealist. To say that "Either materialism is true or nothing is real" is a false dichotomy, and the apparent source of your confusion. If Idealism is true, our experiences of reality continue to be just as real as they ever were.

Change "real"to "Materially Real" and the logic still holds.

Consciousness.

And consciousness is always tied to the material brain. No examples exist of it being otherwise.
Did you believe you could substitute consciousness for God and no one would notice?

You mean Naive Realism which is not consistent with current scientific experimentation. Your assertions are based on "intuition" and "gut feelings" rather than evidence.

No, I mean logical conclusions based on moment to moment experiences.
As to current scientific experiments... do you mean current scientific experiments carried out with real material instruments by real material people or do you mean fake scientific experiments carried out in the illusory world that you deny, yet accept if you mistakenly interpret the results as supporting your assumption?

Consciousness can store and transmit information. Consciousness is immaterial.

Consciousness is always tied to the material brain. No examples exist of it being otherwise.

"I exist" is a piece of information that has been received before any external perception has been considered.

"I exist" cannot even be thought without a material brain.
Show me an example of information that exists or is transmitted independent of material.

If all sensory organs stopped working and stopped having the ability to perceive "material objects" information would not stop existing

.
Neither would the material objects that that are generating the information. No material = No information

Even if all I was experiencing was being a point of consciousness floating in an infinite black void, the information of my existence still remains.

Consciousness is always tied to the material brain. No examples exist of it being otherwise.

The existence of material itself is only apparent to me because I first receive information through sensory perceptions. Consciousness and information come before I even have the chance to assume that material objects exist externally.

The brain comes first, then consciousness. Consciousness is always tied to the material brain. No examples exist of it being otherwise.

What you do is first, ignore the primacy of your own consciousness

,
Nope.

then, ignore that perceptions are always and only the result of information,

Information that is inseparable from material.

then, assume that what you are perceiving are external material objects that exist independent of your observation, then, based on unjustified assumptions conclude that external material objects are the fundamental and only substance that exist, then, declare that those assumed external material objects produce consciousness, then declare that all information must necessarily depend on those assumed external material objects to exist.

I make no assumptions. I am consistent in my actions.

I stop with your first assumption because it is an unjustified and unnecessary one. I know that consciousness exists, and I know that information fundamentally produces the perceptions I experience. What you claim are observation independent material objects arise in my awareness only because of information that I first interpret.

You start with a first assumption that is illogical and unecessary.

Therefore, when you are asking the question, "show me information that exists or is transmitted by immaterial" as an Idealist, my answer is all of existence is an example of this.

What you are doing here is assuming your conclusion, then using your conclusion to prove your assumption.

As a Materialist, you will disagree with this answer because you believe that all of existence is material or fundamentally the result of material interactions. You believe that information and consciousness are fundamentally matter. Yours is an a posteriori philosophy based on a scientifically and philosophically untenable assumption. Mine is an a priori philosophy based on direct knowledge and direct experience that is consistent with scientific experimentation and philosophically sound.

What you are doing is assuming that everything you have experienced your entire life is an illusion then using that assumption as evidence for your conclusion. Every scientific experiment ever performed has been done here, in the world you claim is an illusion and all are dependant on material reality.

[josephpalazzo]

This thread is an illusion.       This thread is an illusion.            This thread is an illusion.

[La Dolce Vita]

When you are denying everything that's existing in reality as evidence, no one can give you evidence, because by your definition evidence does not exist. This is a fun troll strategy, but it cannot be taken serioysly. You make up BS, don't understand quantum-mechanics ... You don't listen, and you certainly don't think. We have also busted you on materialism - which you don't understand. We have no idea what you even mean by the term anymore.

Anyhow, Caspar, as you have demonstrated to be incapable of thinking, the whole "I think therefor I am" bit is rather out of the window isn't it?

Seriously guys, if this smug, dishonest prick isn't a troll then he should be repeating kindergarten. Bring out the banhammer.

[Hakurei Reimu]

In Consciousness, the only thing we can know with certainty exists.

And we're right back where we started.

The fact that consciousness is "the only thing we can know with certainty exists" does not entail that it is the primal stuff of the universe. The observation that we ourselves exist as conscious beings is not actually very remarkable if examined closely, because we can hardly make the observation otherwise â€" you cannot become aware of the fact that you lack awareness (unless you are mad), so the opposite is merely obvious.

le snip

You mean Naive Realism which is not consistent with current scientific experimentation. Your assertions are based on "intuition" and "gut feelings" rather than evidence.

You have no idea what "current scientific experimentation" concludes. I have yet to see a rebuttal to my debunking of your crap on this very topic. Simply ignoring my responses will not make them go away.

Consciousness can store and transmit information. Consciousness is immaterial.

Which seems puzzling as every method we know that transmits information does so via material means (no, quantum nonlocality does not transmit information). You have yet to come up with an example of information transmission that is UNAMBIGUOUSLY immaterial; you simply insist that all information transfer is immaterial and the material actions and means that accompany them are mere artifacts of our lack of perception. Sorry, but that will not wash in a million years.

"I exist" is a piece of information that has been received before any external perception has been considered. If all sensory organs stopped working and stopped having the ability to perceive "material objects" information would not stop existing. Even if all I was experiencing was being a point of consciousness floating in an infinite black void, the information of my existence still remains.

Again, because you can hardly observe otherwise. And if you cannot observe otherwise, the information content of that fact is actually ZERO.

le snip

The existence of material itself is only apparent to me because I first receive information through sensory perceptions. Consciousness and information come before I even have the chance to assume that material objects exist externally.

Which does not entail that consciousness and information are more fundamental than material objects that exist externally. The bleeding obvious.

There's also a bunch of developmental psychologists who would argue with you about the order of the development in children of consciousness, information, and perception.

What you do is first, ignore the primacy of your own consciousness, then, ignore that perceptions are always and only the result of information, then, assume that what you are perceiving are external material objects that exist independent of your observation, then, based on unjustified assumptions conclude that external material objects are the fundamental and only substance that exist, then, declare that those assumed external material objects produce consciousness, then declare that all information must necessarily depend on those assumed external material objects to exist.

The assumption of materialism actually bears out. The world does make much more sense if it is wholey material rather than ideal or even dual. For instance, if consciousness is more fundamental than the material, why can't we simply unwish danger from our world? Why do we even fear material dangers in the first place? (Not just for us, but for all animals. Even plants have adaptations that tend to preserve the integrity of their material.) Why do we seek out new, previously unknown dangers to protect ourselves from, and are anxious to expose?

This makes no sense if the world is idealistic. Unknown dangers literally would not exist, and so would not need to be sought out (we have enough troubles already). Simply denying the existence of a threat would be an effective method of dealing with it, for it is the product of consciousness; that we don't even consider this method of dealing with dangers is rather odd if they are created by our consciousness â€" indeed, the more people are not aware of a danger, the more alarmed and vocal the people who are aware of a danger become. If the material did not exist, then material dangers would not exist either â€" why then, be afraid of them and simply return to the nonmaterial world of bare consciousness?

On the other hand, if the world is materialistic, then it all just makes fucking sense: we fear material dangers because they can end our very existence, and there's no backup nonmaterial conscious realm to fall back on. Those dangers can't be unwished because consciousness itself obeys materialistic laws and cannot change them, being less fundamental. We seek out dangers we do not yet know exist, because not knowing they don't exist will not stop them from killing us.

Even if materialism is an assumption, it's an assumption that bears out. Regardless of your wishes otherwise, consciousness bears the imprimatur as a product of evolution. It bears the marks of a process that is evolved to be a survival tool for wholly material creatures, evolved over eons to deal with the material world â€" because that's it's job. Even then, consciousness is not necessary for survival, strictly speaking. The overwhelming majority of creatures on this planet do fine without even rudimentary consciousness.

le snip finale

Anyway, I think you've had a good run. And I agree with LDV that you have worn out your welcome.

[aitm]

 

[Berati]

Summary of Casparovs 2 step method of self deception:

1) I think therefore my consciousness is all that exists. (Huge assumption and a distortion of Descartes philosophical proposition)
2) I reject any and all other evidence as illusion. (Exceptions made if he misinterprets experiments into supporting assumption 1)


Result: No rational discussion can be had.
Thread is dead

[Mister Agenda]

Take two accurate clocks.   Synchronise them.

Leave one clock in one location.  Carry one with you.   After five hours return to the clock you left.

The unobserved clock will have kept time, even though it and its component parts were unobserved.

(This experiment works even if you don't carry another clock with you, it's just a lot harder to return after five hours.)

It also works if you don't know the time the clock you're carrying has until you unveil both of them, or that what you're carrying is a clock at all. The initiator of the experiment could write down the nature of the experiment, be mercifully terminated, and the person carrying out the experiment will get the same results, even though no one living knows what the expected result was until they read the experimenter's notes.

[Mister Agenda]

Relativity has nothing to do with this.

AND if you know the speed of the clock being zipped around, you can calculate precisely what time the other clock will show, sans observation anyway.

[Mister Agenda]

Maybe it's time for an anecdote. About 13 years ago, I was heavily sedated for open heart surgery. I was completely unconscious for about nine hours. For that time period I had no perception of existing at all. For me, no time passed between counting backwards and suddenly waking up with tubes in my throat and chest. With the parts of my brain that produce my state of consciousness suppreseed, my consciousness...I...couldn't exist. When the function of those parts of my brain returned, so did 'I'. Prior to that experience, I had trouble conceiving of what it would be like to cease to exist. Subsequent to it, I have quite lost any fear of being dead--it's literally nothing to be afraid of, and have wondered if I did truly die in a sense and it's Mister Agenda 2.0 that types all of these fascinating and riveting posts.

[pioteir]

Maybe it's time for an anecdote. About 13 years ago, I was heavily sedated for open heart surgery. I was completely unconscious for about nine hours. For that time period I had no perception of existing at all. For me, no time passed between counting backwards and suddenly waking up with tubes in my throat and chest. With the parts of my brain that produce my state of consciousness suppreseed, my consciousness...I...couldn't exist. When the function of those parts of my brain returned, so did 'I'. Prior to that experience, I had trouble conceiving of what it would be like to cease to exist. Subsequent to it, I have quite lost any fear of being dead--it's literally nothing to be afraid of, and have wondered if I did truly die in a sense and it's Mister Agenda 2.0 that types all of these fascinating and riveting posts.

What a beautiful tale. You should write a book :)

As for the thread it was DOA since the first page. I'm amazed it lasted this long :)

[stromboli]

I was in a coma for 4 days after a motorcyle accident in the Navy. Nothing. Got nothing, no afterlife shit, nothing. Really disappointed.

[Solitary]

I have had an operation for a severed right hand from an explosion where all the ligaments, nerves, and blood vessels were cut in half. I went into shock when I was worked on with no anesthesia because I had to be awake while the nerves were attached back together to which ends were correct, every time the nerves were connected it was like a bolt of lightening going from my forearm to my toes.  I almost bled out. I was rushed to the hospital and was afraid of being put under and told the anesthesiologist I was. He said I was one of the few that admits it.

I also had a pituitary adenoma (non cancerous tumor.) pressing on my optic nerve causing me to go blind in my left eye, it was also pressing on a blood vessel producing an aneurism. The tumor was removed through my nose by suction. Then I had prostate cancer and a double hernia operation on the same day. I was suppose to come home the same day because they were done using the Davinci method, however, things went wrong after six hours and I was clinically dead two or three times. Almost my entire body shut down and my small intestine quit working. The pain was unbearable and I was caught between the will to live and the wish to die.

After two weeks, and three days of living hell I was released to come home and give myself shots of lovenox in the belly for blood clots. After I got better I was walking in the back yard and everything became psychedelic and I sat down on a swing while breathing as deep as I can, because I knew my brain wasn't getting enough oxygen for some reason. While I was looking at a fountain my vision started to fade and go away, then my hearing did the same, I was only aware of being conscious.

I finally came back to normal and made it to my porch and yelled for my wife and son.  In the emergency room the doctor asked me what happened. I told him and he said I was within 20-30  seconds of dying. I told him I knew that. I still had to have a catheter in place. I finally got it removed and couldn't urinate. After 5 more operations It was fixed, and now I have incontinence. In every single operation after the first I wasn't afraid in the least to be put under. I even kept my eyes open to see what would happen---light switch on. light switch off---wake up in recovery. We are a physical body with a brain that produces consciousness, which is real, but that doesn't mean it can exist without a brain alive and functioning correctly. This has been shown to be true by neurologist. In the emergency surgery room, I worked in, there was a note on top of a partial wall that not one single person who's consciousness left their body during surgery and floated on the ceiling could read and even see it.

I had this happen to me twice in my life, and have no doubt it is an illusion, the first time was during a skydiving accident. I have to admit it, seems a real as anything can be, but just shows how remarkable are brains are at creating things that don't exist like God.  Solitary.   

[Casparov]

Maybe it's time for an anecdote. About 13 years ago, I was heavily sedated for open heart surgery. I was completely unconscious for about nine hours. For that time period I had no perception of existing at all. For me, no time passed between counting backwards and suddenly waking up with tubes in my throat and chest. With the parts of my brain that produce my state of consciousness suppreseed, my consciousness...I...couldn't exist. When the function of those parts of my brain returned, so did 'I'. Prior to that experience, I had trouble conceiving of what it would be like to cease to exist. Subsequent to it, I have quite lost any fear of being dead--it's literally nothing to be afraid of, and have wondered if I did truly die in a sense and it's Mister Agenda 2.0 that types all of these fascinating and riveting posts.

You die in that sense every single night during dreamless sleep.