Hi, I'm a cultural Christian

[The Skeletal Atheist]

Another intro thread that has spiraled into a multi page discussion, how surprising. I will admit that I have not really read the thread because it's morning and I'm not interested in reading page after page of people going into every little minutia of your beliefs (though I will read it later probably). I do think I get your general gist though.

Please tell me if I'm right or wrong here:

1. You are a "Cultural Christian". You participate in Judeo-Christian culture and follow Christian mortality (albeit with a more liberal morality than the fundamentalists).
2. You don't believe in God.
3. People are taking issue with the fact you call yourself a Christian.

If those 3 are true then here is my opinion: I don't see you as any different from the cultural Jews who follow Jewish customs because of culture and heritage. As per your calling yourself a Christian rather than an atheist, I take no issue with that. It is important to know that regarding your belief in God you are an atheist, it's just that culturally you're Christian. Atheism refers to belief only, not culture. Saying you're an atheist is perfectly compatible with saying you're a cultural Christian because they are two different things that don't really intersect.

As per you following Christian culture and customs that's your deal. I honestly don't understand it, but whatever. As long as you don't try to hurt people or deny other people rights I don't really care.

[scroyle]

Another intro thread that has spiraled into a multi page discussion, how surprising. I will admit that I have not really read the thread because it's morning and I'm not interested in reading page after page of people going into every little minutia of your beliefs (though I will read it later probably). I do think I get your general gist though.

Please tell me if I'm right or wrong here:

1. You are a "Cultural Christian". You participate in Judeo-Christian culture and follow Christian mortality (albeit with a more liberal morality than the fundamentalists).
2. You don't believe in God.
3. People are taking issue with the fact you call yourself a Christian.

If those 3 are true then here is my opinion: I don't see you as any different from the cultural Jews who follow Jewish customs because of culture and heritage. As per your calling yourself a Christian rather than an atheist, I take no issue with that. It is important to know that regarding your belief in God you are an atheist, it's just that culturally you're Christian. Atheism refers to belief only, not culture. Saying you're an atheist is perfectly compatible with saying you're a cultural Christian because they are two different things that don't really intersect.

As per you following Christian culture and customs that's your deal. I honestly don't understand it, but whatever. As long as you don't try to hurt people or deny other people rights I don't really care.

Thanks. You've got everything in a neat nutshell. That's precisely it.  As I have told others, I don't evangelise or proselytise because a cultural Christian does not do that. Why would I impose my own personal culture on others? It's like forcing others to take on my family name. That's vile. I certainly don't hurt others or deny them their rights because of religion. When one looks upon religion as a purely cultural thing, it's not likely that one would insist on others being marginalized for not following one's culture. It's only when you believe in a supernatural super-tyrant up in the sky that you become wonky in your thoughts.

[La Dolce Vita]

Thanks for your very clear post. I understand what you mean. But you must understand why I have difficulty accepting that I'm an atheist by definition. Maybe I'm using the definition the church uses. You see, an atheist can't be a Communicant in Church.

Theism = Belief in god(s) (that interacts in our daily life)
Atheism = Lack of belief in god(s)
A in front of a word = without in the English language. Atheists are simply everyone who are not theist (or deist).

That's all it means. It means nothing more. Some dictionaries say rejection of god(s), others say belief that gods do not exist (which is actually anti-theism, but anti-theists are atheists by default). There are no other properties, no other meaning.

As you say you do not believe in a god, that is synonymous with saying you are an atheist. Out of curiosity, have you told your priest that you specifically do not believe in any gods? If so, and he's ok with it then atheists can clearly be a Communicant in Church.

I always thought they were exclusive.

Who? Atheists? We are not. Like I have been trying to tell you atheism is not an ideological group. Atheists are simply just everyone who are not theists(or deists). It's a category comprised on a single similarity - the lack of a belief in an actual god. Beyond that we are not exclusive to any similarities what so ever. There are atheists religions, there are people defining themselves as atheists and hating religion but who believes in ghosts and all kinds of supernatural nonsense, you have atheists who follow dogmatic ideologies that are just like religion, such as communists, there are atheists who are skeptics (most likely the group you are singling out as the only atheists) and then we have atheists like yourself who are cultural christians, jews, muslims, etc.

Or do you mean exclusive to each other? If so, I'll answer below:

You're only an atheist if you have left the Communion. If you say my definition is flawed, that's fine. We'll then have to review the definition of an "atheist" to include someone who is a Communicant. That really sounds odd to me. That's a real contradiction.

In regard to the contradiction: Well, that's what many on this forum thinks as well. As you are an atheist by definition, meaning not a theist, and Christianity is a theistic religion rather than an atheistic one - they see a contradiction between you not believing in the christian god but being a Christian. That's why they argue with you on this point, as they cannot see how it's possible. But clearly you are proof that it is. And unless you see a contradiction between you, who do not believe in any gods (atheist), being a christian, I'm not sure how you can say there's a contradiction here.

As for the definition: Yes, you do. No definition I have ever seen of atheism includes any mention of distancing yourself from a religion, it is solely specific to whether or not believe in one or more gods.

I have always been told that an atheist rebels against the Church.

Incorrect. The definition of atheism has no connection to your religion (aside from originally being what the Romans called your religion as you rejected their gods and only believed in one) or any other religion. Rebelling against the church or any other religion is not an atheistic trait. Many atheists do, many don't. Plenty of atheists, who define themselves as atheists and do not take part in your religion in any way see it as a force of good and respects it, even contributes to your charities, etc. In fact I know many such atheists personally. Many atheists also don't care about the church one way or another. Others can be in countries where your church have little to no presence and primarily have to deal with a different religion, which they may or may rebel against.

[Feral Atheist]

Can't chat now. I've got to prepare to go to church to worship my Lord Jesus Christ. It's my atheistic duty. LOL.

[scroyle]

Theism = Belief in god(s) (that interacts in our daily life)
Atheism = Lack of belief in god(s)
A in front of a word = without in the English language. Atheists are simply everyone who are not theist (or deist).

That's all it means. It means nothing more. Some dictionaries say rejection of god(s), others say belief that gods do not exist (which is actually anti-theism, but anti-theists are atheists by default). There are no other properties, no other meaning.

As you say you do not believe in a god, that is synonymous with saying you are an atheist. Out of curiosity, have you told your priest that you specifically do not believe in any gods? If so, and he's ok with it then atheists can clearly be a Communicant in Church.

Who? Atheists? We are not. Like I have been trying to tell you atheism is not an ideological group. Atheists are simply just everyone who are not theists(or deists). It's a category comprised on a single similarity - the lack of a belief in an actual god. Beyond that we are not exclusive to any similarities what so ever. There are atheists religions, there are people defining themselves as atheists and hating religion but who believes in ghosts and all kinds of supernatural nonsense, you have atheists who follow dogmatic ideologies that are just like religion, such as communists, there are atheists who are skeptics (most likely the group you are singling out as the only atheists) and then we have atheists like yourself who are cultural christians, jews, muslims, etc.

Or do you mean exclusive to each other? If so, I'll answer below:

In regard to the contradiction: Well, that's what many on this forum thinks as well. As you are an atheist by definition, meaning not a theist, and Christianity is a theistic religion rather than an atheistic one - they see a contradiction between you not believing in the christian god but being a Christian. That's why they argue with you on this point, as they cannot see how it's possible. But clearly you are proof that it is. And unless you see a contradiction between you, who do not believe in any gods (atheist), being a christian, I'm not sure how you can say there's a contradiction here.

As for the definition: Yes, you do. No definition I have ever seen of atheism includes any mention of distancing yourself from a religion, it is solely specific to whether or not believe in one or more gods.

Incorrect. The definition of atheism has no connection to your religion (aside from originally being what the Romans called your religion as you rejected their gods and only believed in one) or any other religion. Rebelling against the church or any other religion is not an atheistic trait. Many atheists do, many don't. Plenty of atheists, who define themselves as atheists and do not take part in your religion in any way see it as a force of good and respects it, even contributes to your charities, etc. In fact I know many such atheists personally. Many atheists also don't care about the church one way or another. Others can be in countries where your church have little to no presence and primarily have to deal with a different religion, which they may or may rebel against.

Yes, my vicar knows perfectly well what my position is. He himself believes in some supernatural thingy but we have another priest who takes the same position as me.  I think it's only a contradiction because I've been so used to thinking of an atheist as someone who opposes the church and rebels against its rituals which is why I don't accept myself as an atheist. And the other people in this forum think there is a contradiction because they are so used to the definition of a Christian as someone who believes in supernatural things and they don't know a thing about cultural Christians. So what's really funny is I have a wrong definition of an atheist and the atheists here have a wrong definition of a Christian that necessarily excludes a cultural Christian. LOL.

I'm so used to the idea that an atheist is someone who won't kneel at the altar that I feel more comfortable calling myself a cultural Christian who does not accept anything supernatural. That's how my mum thinks too. If I tell her I'm an atheist, she'll ask what about church and my duties in the church choir? She knows I don't believe in the supernatural. She doesn't really either but if I say I'm an atheist, it will mean a whole different thing to her. She'll think of rebellion against the church and the priests.

[La Dolce Vita]

^^Yes, that's part of the many prejudices atheists face. There are a lot of wrong and misguided beliefs of what an atheist is. Many believe we are an homogenous group and that atheism (the lack of belief in a specific supernatural claim) is akin to a religion, and that we go around basing our whole life on the (non-existant) teachings of atheism. It can get quite bothersome - but believe me, stick around on this forum and you'll see how non-homogenous we are. There are huge conflicts of ideas even within the subcategory of atheists who are both skeptics and humanists.

In regard to your mother, even if she has the right definition of atheism it is understandable why she could think that. Christianity is a theistic religion, so being an atheist (not believing in an actual god)  would by many, including tons of Christians (quite likely the majority, though if you take out Catholics and fundamentalists, less), mean that you are rebelling against the church (as you are rejecting all the core supernatural tenants of your church). But as soon as you call yourself a cultural christian that problem goes away. Many, both Christians and non-Christians will not consider cultural Christians as a true Christians though.

[Hydra009]

You're only an atheist if you have left the Communion. If you say my definition is flawed, that's fine. We'll then have to review the definition of an "atheist" to include someone who is a Communicant. That really sounds odd to me. That's a real contradiction.

Jeez, you're really batting zero when it comes to definitions.  True, atheists are generally not "in communion" (though it's possible for closeted ones to be, and occasionally, even priests number among them).  But this definition is flawed because it dependents entirely on a Christian vantage point.  It would be like defining Christians according to whether or not they are Shiva devotees.  The far more common and accurate definition of atheism is that atheists do not believe in the existence of a God.

I have always been told that an atheist rebels against the Church.

Then you have always been lied to.  Atheists by definition do not believe in the mythology of Christianity (or any other theistic religion), but their stance towards "the Church" varies from person to person.  Some are opposed to what the view as dangerous superstition and are understandably leery of its attempts to usurp secular government and dominate the public square, while some are more accommodating.  If you want to call that "rebellion", then so be it.  But again, we do not live our lives in relation to your religion.  It is simply one belief system among many that we simply do not subscribe to.  We are no more in "rebellion" towards Christianity than we are towards Islam or Zoroastrianism or the theistic varieties of Hinduism.

[PickelledEggs]

I've seen more convincing arguments from full-blown theists. I'm done with this thread.

[scroyle]

I've seen more convincing arguments from full-blown theists. I'm done with this thread.

You are not rational. What arguments are you looking for? You are as lost as you sound.  But it's ok.  It's a free world and you can be as irrational as you want to be. It's atheists who are usually intolerant of irrational folks like you. I'm tolerant of all kinds of people and honestly, I've seen far more irrational people than you, so you are ok.

[Johan]

Some insisted that I didn't answer all the questions (although I'm sure I have - I go post by post and deal with them all) and they say I'm a troll. That's their prerogative but I sense a general hostile stand against me just because I acknowledge my devotion to my religion. That's ok. I'm used to talking to atheists and anti-theists.

Your perception is incorrect here. No one has any problem with someone being devoted to a religion. Our problem with you stems from your unwillingness to read a dictionary or accept what it says. You don't get to just redefine what words mean because you like it better that way. That isn't how life works.

Thanks for your very clear post. I understand what you mean. But you must understand why I have difficulty accepting that I'm an atheist by definition.

Now we're getting somewhere. Being an atheist who doesn't want to admit to being an atheist is not the same thing as being a christian. You're claiming to be one when I think you are in fact, the other.

Maybe I'm using the definition the church uses. You see, an atheist can't be a Communicant in Church.

You have to use the definition the dictionary uses, not the church.

If you say my definition is flawed, that's fine. We'll then have to review the definition of an "atheist" to include someone who is a Communicant.

There you go again with that lets change the definition so it suits me better shit. That isn't how life works.

I used to date a girl who smoked pot like it was going out of style. I once had a conversation with her where I told her that I was concerned about her drug use. In a very surprised tone she replied that she doesn't do drugs. I said you smoke enough pot to keep an entire cartel in gold teeth. She said well pot isn't a drug, its a natural herb. I stopped dating that girl because she was crazy. Making up your own definitions for words is what crazy people do. So if  you're wondering why people here are getting annoyed with you, that's why. Its because you're doing something that crazy people do.

I have always been told that an atheist rebels against the Church.

You've been told wrong.

I don't want to argue with you guys. It's fine if you think I'm an atheist. But you must bear in mind that I'm still a faithful and devout Communicant of Christ's holy church.

Out of curiosity, does your priest know that you believe god doesn't really exist? Have you told him directly that you do not believe god actually exists?

[the_antithesis]

I don't really care.

Wisdom is contagious.

OK, not it isn't, but be nice if it was.

[scroyle]

Out of curiosity, does your priest know that you believe god doesn't really exist? Have you told him directly that you do not believe god actually exists?

I've said it before. My current vicar believes in some supernatural thing but another priest holds the same view as me. Yes, my vicar knows my view perfectly well. It's nothing new in my church. It's got everyone in this forum crying blue murder but it's a regular thing in my church with some priests holding to the same view.

[scroyle]

I used to date a girl who smoked pot like it was going out of style. I once had a conversation with her where I told her that I was concerned about her drug use. In a very surprised tone she replied that she doesn't do drugs. I said you smoke enough pot to keep an entire cartel in gold teeth. She said well pot isn't a drug, its a natural herb. I stopped dating that girl because she was crazy. Making up your own definitions for words is what crazy people do. So if  you're wondering why people here are getting annoyed with you, that's why. Its because you're doing something that crazy people do.

Again, that's another wrong analogy. That girl is just offering an excuse to allow herself to continue her drug use. She's not insane and you've poor judgment to think she is. Here, it's different. I have the authority of the entire church to back me up. My priests all the way to the Archbishop call me a Christian. You atheists together with fundamentalist Christians call me an atheist. I am willing to accept that following the definition of dictionaries, my position with regard to the supernatural can be viewed as atheistic. But you are not willing to accept that Christians include cultural Christians who don't believe in the supernatural. Why is that so? You are crazy? No, I don't think you are insane. I think the reason is you are so used to seeing fundamentalists and Mormons and there are no cultural Christians among these. If you live in Europe, you'd know that there are many people including clergymen who are cultural Christians. I don't think you're insane. I think it's culture again. American culture is decidedly fundy. I too have shown you a dictionary definition of a cultural Christian. 

[the_antithesis]

Again, that's another wrong analogy. That girl is just offering an excuse to allow herself to continue her drug use.

So you're just offering an excuse to allow yourself to continue being a dick?

[scroyle]

So you're just offering an excuse to allow yourself to continue being a dick?

Don't be daft. I know you are but try not to be.