I'm Catholic, let me have it!

[PickelledEggs]

@pickelledeggs, Happy to do it. Sorry if I was as tedious as you thought I would be lol. I just have this "A Catholic priest theorized the Big Bang, for crying out loud!" chip on my shoulder, if I'm brainwashed then it is up to me to earnestly seek the truth, but I'm not stupid.

You weren't tedious. I was trying to learn the thought process of how people get to the last answer you gave me. So thank you [emoji2]

Sent from the land of pizza and whisky.

[Poison Tree]

@poisontree, I think everyone believes now and again, that given omnipotence they could do a better job than God. The problem is that we remain confined to our inferior logic even if we imagine that we are hypothetically omnipotent. Catholics are typically "both, and" minded instead of "either, or" I believe that God is omnipotent, AND that we are fallible humans living in an imperfect world. I believe BOTH of those things are true at the same time.

So, was that a "yes" or a "no"?

Out of curiosity, do you only follow those teachings that were giving during papal infallibility? Also, why do you accept a fallible declaration of when a pope can be infallible?

[Vercingetorix]

Yes, I believe there are things that have happened that I wish hadn't, and things that haven't happened, that I wish had. I can only understand these things (natural dissaters, terrorism, etc.) within the context of my human logic, and scientific knowledge, and have no idea whether God did intervene, did not intervene, should have intervened, or should not have intervened. Absolutely, the instances when Papal infallibility have been invoked are; as copied and pasted from Wikipedia,

1. "Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
2. Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
3. Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just after death rather than only just prior to final judgment;
4. Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
5. Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
6. Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
7. Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.

as you can see, these things are rather specific, and do not have much to do with everyday Catholic life. The rest of our faith comes from the fact that our church was instituted by Christ to be a force for good, and that because of that, even things that may be fallible are nonetheless good for us to believe until there is sufficient evidence that they are absolutely flawed.

[Johan]

The existence of pedophile priests is a terrible reason to not go to Mass. The California public school system has a vastly more horrifying sex abuse track record just in it's state than the entire world wide Church has at all, but no one thinks the entire institution should just be scrapped like some do the Church.

Unless and until you can provide verifiable numbers for both the California public school system and the entire Catholic Church I call bullshit on this claim. Beyond that, it is not the fact that the church has a history of members who are pedophiles that I have a problem with. It is the fact that the church has a well established history of protecting known pedophiles from prosecution that I have a problem with. And let me be clear, I have a really really big problem with that and you should to. Not a reason to avoid mass? Go fuck yourself. That is an entirely valid reason to avoid everything to do with the entire organization IMO.

[Plu]

If you want to know whether the church is a force for good like you claim and have an hour, watch this debate on the topic.
It's worth your time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUR4OH7_0PE

[PickelledEggs]

If you want to know whether the church is a force for good like you claim and have an hour, watch this debate on the topic.
It's worth your time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUR4OH7_0PE

Hitchslap! Boosh!

[Vercingetorix]

I've seen this Hitchslap! Theatrics, celebrity parade, not that impressed. I like Hitchens in general... as an orator, and debater, but I didn't care for this debate. I'm working on those numbers johan... I know they're here somewhere...

[aitm]

our inferior logic

I believe that God is omnipotent,

and by our inferior logic, and given this god is omnipotent, how the fuck could he not best a little army with their iron wheels?
And If this god is omnipotent tell me by what crazy ass logic does one condone the butchering of children and raping of little girls?
And with this great and grand omnipotence god of yours how does one condemn the mentally ill, handi-capped and sick and diseased to be shunned?
You got a piece of shit god and its embarrassing to you, so you have to over compensate by arguing with the dreaded non-believers.

[Johan]

I'm working on those numbers johan... I know they're here somewhere...

Don't forget to show where the California school system made it a policy to systematically protect known pedophiles from criminal prosecution and or bribe victims with hush money. Apples to apples and all that.

[Poison Tree]

This is the "competent, intellectual way of thinking about" god? I could get this 'god's ways are beyond us and a mystery, yet I still somehow follow his ways' double talk from the average bible-thumper who has surpassed his seventh birthday.

[Vercingetorix]

@johan, Okay, these are the numbers for the US; the Annual Catholic Abuse Audit has reported in 2010, 2011, and 2012 that the number of credible claims of sexual abuse among over 40,000 priests were 8.0, 7.0, and 6.0 respectively. According to the Centers for Disease Control, and Prevention more than 500,000 cases of child abuse are reported every year in California. According to the California Commission on Teacher Credentialing, thousands of cases of sexual abuse in the public schools are reviewed annually; action is taken in approximately 800 of those cases. So far, that's 7 to 800. At Miramonte Elementary in south L.A. 128 staff members, including 90 teachers were temporarily relocated to other schools while officials investigated the atrocious sexual misconduct that happened there. Teacher Mark Berndt was arrested and charged with 23 counts of lewd conduct with his third graders. When Mr. Berndt appealed his termination, the school district payed him $40,000 to keep quiet. All of this readily available, public information. It's just not reported on in the media.

[leo]

I've seen this Hitchslap! Theatrics, celebrity parade, not that impressed. I like Hitchens in general... as an orator, and debater, but I didn't care for this debate. I'm working on those numbers johan... I know they're here somewhere...

I don't think you were paying attention to this debate. Christopher hitchens owned the catholic church BIG TIME.

[Johan]

I said I wanted verifiable numbers. That generally means numbers supplied by a non-bias credible source. The Annual Catholic Abuse Audit is a report put out by the church itself. Sorry charlie, that ain't gonna get it. Better luck next time.

[Vercingetorix]

All the numbers have completely credible sources. Give me a source for your claim that there is a "Well established history of protecting known pedophiles." Otherwise I will continue to site the John Jay report that states less than 5% of accused priests fit a diagnosis of pedophilia, and to quote the report; “it is inaccurate to refer to abusers as ‘pedophile priests.’” A pedophile is an adult that is sexually attracted to prepubescent children, that means under age 11. Over 95% of abuser priests targeted adolescent boys, not prepubescent girls, so "pedophile" is an incorrect definition in the first place.

[Johan]

Oh for fuck sake. Seriously? Priests only rape teen aged boys therefore they're not really pedophiles. Well color me corrected then.