A hard currency standard is the key to world peace

[barbarian]

If you agree on how much the "grid charge" from generator to plug will be, and if you can measure plug energy, then I don't see the problem.

If you pull your last month's electric bill out and look at it they already do this.

also here's a missed post,

You only want to account for the energy sold, which is not even remotely close to being real time. What they make and what actually gets consumed are two very different things. Approx. 50% of all electricity is lost before delivery so you can not go by what is being pumped out of the electric companies generators. The only way that it can be measured is walking up to the electric meters and verifying the watt hours used. Not sure how it works in your neck of the woods but that is monthly, so right there it is already a month off of real time.

Like Enron and other communication companies they can easily manipulate the grid and that could take months or years to catch on to, even with current regulations in place. You also have the oil companies and all their shenanigans that they still use to manipulate severely but currently are still not being addressed. You think that you would be able to tap into a market place like that and have what they are going to value what you have in your pocket? Besides how you going to strip that away from them, this does not exclude oil rich countries that do not like you and me. I can go on but I will assume that you understand the nature of what I am saying, or should at the least.

Explain once again, how you would like to account for it? What accounting system is that anyways? I have a coupon for 50 cents off of a box of cheerios? Is that an asset or liability? Is that tangible or intangible, if it is tangible is it ever intangible or vice-versa? As a stated you may not account for the things they way in which you are thinking you may.

[zarus tathra]

If you pull your last month's electric bill out and look at it they already do this.

I guess the really important aspect is that people should expect a minimum quantity of joules for their buck. This used to be done with the gold standard, and I think that this should be done with electricity. The way things are now, the amount of electricity you get for your money is degrading exponentially.

Plus, I already kind of answered your question about the loss over distance. It's probably a more complicated problem than what I portrayed it as, but I think we can both agree that it's not intractable with the use of computer technology.

Energy prices have skyrocketed since 2000. The graph below is adjusted for inflation. Now imagine it WITH inflation.

[barbarian]

If you pull your last month's electric bill out and look at it they already do this.

I guess the really important aspect is that people should expect a minimum value of joules for their buck. This used to be done with the gold standard, and I think that this should be done with electricity. The way things are now, the amount of electricity you get for your money is degrading exponentially.

Plus, I already kind of answered your question about the loss over distance. It's probably a more complicated problem than what I portrayed it as, but I think we can both agree that it's not intractable with the use of computer technology.

At least with gold you always had the option to buy a tangible asset and hold on to it until the value went up again, also gold is way more of a stable market than a commodity like electricity. Could you imagine if OPEC decide to stop or slowed pumping oil until they got the market where they wanted to start pumping at a faster rate again? You do realize that electricity is still produced in many areas of the U.S. and world using petroleum products? This would be very bad and for any type of economy to based off of for their currency. Have you ever heard of the gas lines of the seventies and what that did to our currency back then? If not let me give you a tip, it was one of the worst inflationary times in current history that people still living remember. 2008's little stock market glitch sent our economy into a tail spin, did you see what happen to oil prices compared to gold according to the stock market?

Step aside from computer technologies to be the watch dog as they can be manipulated and it could even have even bigger adverse financial liabilities than what you see today as you are putting all your eggs in one basket. This is why I keep saying that electric can only be one part of the global market and rightfully so. Economics pivot off way more than one thing and as the market gets integrated more and more world wide you can not separate much that is already part of it so one thing can not manipulate the market in an almighty way. Also our market is what we call a fractional system market whether it is based off of a gold standard or just our good word.

PS: every down cycle of your little graph had a side effect of inflation. That is where your dollar deflated in value and your system would not be immured to it in any fashion and in fact would by more susceptible to inflationary times.

[zarus tathra]

Could you imagine if OPEC decide to stop or slowed pumping oil until they got the market where they wanted to start pumping at a faster rate again? You do realize that electricity is still produced in many areas of the U.S. and world using petroleum products? This would be very bad and for any type of economy to based off of for their currency. Have you ever heard of the gas lines of the seventies and what that did to our currency back then? If not let me give you a tip, it was one of the worst inflationary times in current history that people still living remember. 2008's little stock market glitch sent our economy into a tail spin, did you see what happen to oil prices compared to gold according to the stock market?

There's really no way around these problems if you don't solve the material problem, I agree. But you can't just paper over them.

Step aside from computer technologies to be the watch dog as they can be manipulated and it could even have even bigger adverse financial liabilities than what you see today as you are putting all your eggs in one basket. This is why I keep saying that electric can only be one part of the global market and rightfully so. Economics pivot off way more than one thing and as the market gets integrated more and more world wide you can not separate much that is already part of it so one thing can not manipulate the market in an almighty way. Also our market is what we call a fractional system market whether it is based off of a gold standard or just our good word.

It's not just computer technologies that are the "watchdog." You have physical meters NOW, and people could easily buy and use their own meters. Fraud would actually be more detectable than it is now. If you expect a certain amount of electricity and you aren't getting it, your own devices will tell you.

[barbarian]

Could you imagine if OPEC decide to stop or slowed pumping oil until they got the market where they wanted to start pumping at a faster rate again? You do realize that electricity is still produced in many areas of the U.S. and world using petroleum products? This would be very bad and for any type of economy to based off of for their currency. Have you ever heard of the gas lines of the seventies and what that did to our currency back then? If not let me give you a tip, it was one of the worst inflationary times in current history that people still living remember. 2008's little stock market glitch sent our economy into a tail spin, did you see what happen to oil prices compared to gold according to the stock market?

There's really no way around these problems if you don't solve the material problem, I agree. But you can't just paper over them.

Step aside from computer technologies to be the watch dog as they can be manipulated and it could even have even bigger adverse financial liabilities than what you see today as you are putting all your eggs in one basket. This is why I keep saying that electric can only be one part of the global market and rightfully so. Economics pivot off way more than one thing and as the market gets integrated more and more world wide you can not separate much that is already part of it so one thing can not manipulate the market in an almighty way. Also our market is what we call a fractional system market whether it is based off of a gold standard or just our good word.

It's not just computer technologies that are the "watchdog." You have physical meters NOW, and people could easily buy and use their own meters. Fraud would actually be more detectable than it is now.

What you want to go to is another paper system...

This is out of touch of reality. I can monitor my meter outside my house just fine. But to make a statement like this does not compute.

[zarus tathra]

But, but what you want to go to is a paper system...

A paper system with hardened obligations.

[barbarian]

Again, this would be a paper system that would be far more easy to manipulate than then the current market that has everything within it. It is based off of one dynamic and like gold, which is way, way more stable we found that it didn't work either. The gold standard was eliminated in 1971 was to prevent economic collapse and we still seen gas lines by 1973 and was the biggest inflationary period in recent times. You are playing with fire to try and tie the economics of the dollar or what ever you want to call it, basically a credit in today's world is turning your back on history and it will repeat itself.

[zarus tathra]

You already admitted that people can watch their own energy usage to make sure that they're getting the energy they paid for. If people are getting the energy they paid for, and if the joulebuck is constrained by a price ceiling that can be verified, then the system is working just fine. Right now, the USD is not constrained by anything except the threat of mass sell-offs of government debt, which may yet happen.

[barbarian]

Go back and look at the the chart that you posted. You are reading the chart upside down. Where it shows the 1973 oil embargo that is not where the dollar was inflated. The Dollar was deflated over the next 7 years until it peaked at the top in 1980. through those 7 years energy was being sold for more than what are dollar was worth. When Ronald Reagan took Social Security and put it in the general fund and borrowed money from it then stopped inflation. Over the next 20 years you can see how the dollar was curved to value and not inflated. Do you see where the 911 attacks happened? Once again were bottomed out on the value of the dollar and inflation started all over again. This also coincides with wages being stagnated for the past 10+ years. Now if you are paying attention to your own currency it does not do anything differently than the dollar does in current times. The cost of essentials rises and the value of the dollar drops. If you take your system and to your example from the graph that you posted it would be a tragedy to base currency off of electricity as it already has a history of the way the dollar responds in our current market trends. I will say it once again, the notion that basing our monetary system off of something that trends like this is no different than going back to the gold standard, which would be far more stable being that you have it being backed by something that is actually tangible.

[zarus tathra]

Define "tangible." Then we can talk, because you seem to not understand what "tangible" means.

And if the money were based on something as difficult to fake as electricity, then all those inane, abstract manipulations would mean very, very little.

[barbarian]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tangible
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intangible

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tangible
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/intangible


If you do not like the sources of definition I provided then go ahead and post the definition from your favorite online dictionary.

I can put a gold piece in my pocket.
I can not put kwh in my pocket.

[zarus tathra]

Ssssssooo you're saying that electricity can't be touched? That it isn't made out electrons, which are a form of matter? Are you fucking serious?

1.

capable of being touched; discernible by the touch; material or substantial.


2.

real or actual, rather than imaginary or visionary:

If you insist on continuing with this inane line of non-inquiry, then I suggest you stick your fingers in an electrical socket and test out your theory that electricity is intangible.

[barbarian]

Yes I am saying I can not put a khw in my pocket unless you know something I don't.

[zarus tathra]

Okay since you apparently can't read dictionaries I think we're done.

[barbarian]

Okay since you apparently can't read dictionaries I think we're done.

You are the one that can not read dictionaries you say that it is based of of energy consumption in the form of a kwh and put that in your pocket which you can not. You even stressed how you can monitor the consumption of these khw but now you won't tell me how I can put them in my pocket like a gold piece? Can I please carry a khw around please explain how this is possible?

I thought that you had it all figured out.


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