A hard currency standard is the key to world peace

[barbarian]

Yes, joulebucks are intangible. The point is that you'll know if your currency's getting debased IMMEDIATELY rather over the course of months or even years as the government floods the economy.

And yes, you can buy electricity on the world market with dollars. Except the value you get is always going down. And down. And down. Our economics and politics is designed to hide this fact from you.

So, your proposal will change all this I doubt it very much. You want to redo the world market with what a sliver of what it entails as of right now. Renaming something doesn't change the system you refer to it will still work out in the wash as either a credit or a debit in the end. I can take my credits right now and turn them into cash, you just want to call them a different name but in the end it is still currency. On top of that you want to tap into a market, by the way is already available to you to buy into world wide, and bace it off of that alone. The communications market which is what it actually falls under is already been so heavily manipulated in the past you think if we base our whole economy off that principle that it would some how be a better plan? Please explain, because this seems like you may be misinterpreting the world commerce that we already have. It is called economics.

Look at Enron that worked out in real time didn't it? Fuck no it didn't.

[zarus tathra]

So, your proposal will change all this I doubt it very much. You want to redo the world market with what a sliver of what it entails as of right now. Renaming something doesn't change the system you refer to it will still work out in the wash as either a credit or a debit in the end. I can take my credits right now and turn them into cash, you just want to call them a different name but in the end it is still currency.

A currency with hard limits on how much it can grow, much harder than a gold standard. A gold standard might rarely if ever get turned into metal, while people are constantly buying and using electricity.

On top of that you want to tap into a market, by the way is already available to you to buy into world wide, and bace it off of that alone.

Everything uses electricity. It only makes sense to quantify economic costs in large part in terms of its electricity cost rather than in terms of this unknown quantity known as "value" or "desire."

The communications market which is what it actually falls under is already been so heavily manipulated in the past you think if we base our whole economy off that principle that it would some how be a better plan?

What?

[barbarian]

So, once again....
Gold is something tangible.
Electricity is something that is intangible.

You can currently buy into either one in almost any market in the world.

[barbarian]

The communications market which is what it actually falls under is already been so heavily manipulated in the past you think if we base our whole economy off that principle that it would some how be a better plan?

What?

Look at Enron that worked out in real time didn't it? Fuck no it didn't.

[zarus tathra]

Gold is something tangible.

I guess I was imprecise in using "tangible" as the word. "Necessary to industry" or "correlated with physical cost" are better terms. But I think you've done everything you can to exploit any ambiguity of language and obfuscate as much as possible, so the fault is like 10% on my plate.

Electricity is something that is intangible.

Then go ahead and plug your hand into a wall socket. Don't worry, it's intangible!

You can currently buy into either one in almost any market in the world.

And the price you get will not make any sense until it's too late. That's what happens when you quantify everything in terms of an abstract idea of "value" and not in terms of its energy cost.

Look at Enron that worked out in real time didn't it? Fuck no it didn't.

I really don't understand you. Please make your idea more precise.

In the current price system, people don't expect to get x joules for x dollars. They don't think in those terms, and that's why Enron could fuck with people, because people didn't have strong expectations regarding the token value of electricity. In a joulebuck system, that expectation would be constant and unrelenting. In fact, that expectation would be the bedrock of the economy.

[barbarian]

excuse me, I thought you understood accounting for something. In accounting you have to account for your tangible and intangible items. But what value it holds today may not tommorrow, you can not do real time like you think you can.

For Example: I am a Harley Davidson and I have what is called "goodwill" in meaning that just the name has value that has to be accounted for as an asset to the company. This is intangible.

I am Harley Davidson and I hold certain inventories from raw material to finished products. This is an asset and also has value that needs to be accounted for also. This is tangible.

What either one of these has as value is debatable at any given time of what the actual value is. Tomorrow both could loose value and you wouldn't know it until it is to late.

Your plan is to take out the worlds economy and replace it with the fart & wind program...

[zarus tathra]

Your plan is to take out the worlds economy and replace it with the fart program...

I think we're done here.

[barbarian]

Your plan is to take out the worlds economy and replace it with the fart program...

I think we're done here.

Why? You are the one that will not explain how you supposed plan would work. Like I keep saying it is already part of the world's economy. The way you would like to account for things is not how an accountant may account for things that is even legal. Sorry for getting cynical but really, you are not even close to understanding economics with your plan, it is way more complex than what you are making it out to be.

[zarus tathra]

Why? You are the one that will not explain how you supposed plan would work. Like I keep saying it is already part of the world's economy. The way you would like to account for things is not how an accountant may account for things that is even legal.

I've explained (approximately) how my plan would work. I've explained that the difficulty of inflating the currency would arise from the inherent measurability of energy usage and the instantaneous nature of the Joulebuck's redemption.

Like I keep saying it is already part of the world's economy.

And people allow the price of energy to rise constantly because they don't view it as the bedrock. Which enables currency debasement and the obfuscation of costs, including the cost of waging war.

The way you would like to account for things is not how an accountant may account for things that is even legal.

I don't care.

[barbarian]

Why? You are the one that will not explain how you supposed plan would work. Like I keep saying it is already part of the world's economy. The way you would like to account for things is not how an accountant may account for things that is even legal.

I've explained (approximately) how my plan would work. I've explained that the difficulty of inflating the currency would arise from the inherent measurability of energy usage and the instantaneous nature of the Joulebuck's redemption.

Like I keep saying it is already part of the world's economy.

And people allow the price of energy to rise constantly because they don't view it as the bedrock. Which enables currency debasement and the obfuscation of costs, including the cost of waging war.

The way you would like to account for things is not how an accountant may account for things that is even legal.

I don't care.

They way you explain it can not work, why? Because am am not certain you have the understanding of exactly how electricity is generated. This can fluctuate to extremely to base a currency off of. Same thing can be said about the oil market.

Again, you may put all your credits into communication commodities in the world wide market. Some people don't want big risks of the betting of the long and shorts of it.

Being that you don't care about ethics in accounting practices shows that your plan is a manipulation from the ground up. You can not build economics off of a foundation that has zero ethics, which is how you would have to actually account for anything that you are trying to put value on, whether it is a "dollar' or a "Joulebuck."

[zarus tathra]

They way you explain it can not work, why? Because am am not certain you have the understanding of exactly how electricity is generated. This can fluctuate to extremely to base a currency off of. Same thing can be said about the oil market.

So they won't print out so many joulebucks that people will overload the grid. That's all that matters in the end, making sure that people get the energy they pay for and that the grid isn't overloaded and that people get enough output to be contented.

Again, you may put all your credits into communication commodities in the world wide market. Some people don't want big risks of the betting of the long and shorts of it.

This whole system will hinge on whether or not the power company keeps the grid going, I agree. But so far they seem to be doing a good job of it. If things become worse and electricity becomes scarce, then energy accounting would become even more vital.

Being that you don't care about ethics in accounting practices shows that your plan is a manipulation from the ground up.

Define "ethics in accounting practices," at least in this context. We're keeping a very strict system by which people have x number of joulebucks which can be redeemed for a hard minimum amount of electricity. That's a lot simpler and more transparent than current accounting practices.

[barbarian]

You only want to account for the energy sold, which is not even remotely close to being real time. What they make and what actually gets consumed are two very different things. Approx. 50% of all electricity is lost before delivery so you can not go by what is being pumped out of the electric companies generators. The only way that it can be measured is walking up to the electric meters and verifying the watt hours used. Not sure how it works in your neck of the woods but that is monthly, so right there it is already a month off of real time.

Like Enron and other communication companies they can easily manipulate the grid and that could take months or years to catch on to, even with current regulations in place. You also have the oil companies and all their shenanigans that they still use to manipulate severely but currently are still not being addressed. You think that you would be able to tap into a market place like that and have what they are going to value what you have in your pocket? Besides how you going to strip that away from them, this does not exclude oil rich countries that do not like you and me. I can go on but I will assume that you understand the nature of what I am saying, or should at the least.

Explain once again, how you would like to account for it? What accounting system is that anyways? I have a coupon for 50 cents off of a box of cheerios? Is that an asset or liability? Is that tangible or intangible, if it is tangible is it ever intangible or vice-versa? As a stated you may not account for the things they way in which you are thinking you may.

[zarus tathra]

You only want to account for the energy sold, which is not even remotely close to being real time. What they make and what actually gets consumed are two very different things. Approx. 50% of all electricity is lost before delivery so you can not go by what is being pumped out of the electric companies generators. The only way that it can be measured is walking up to the electric meters and verifying the watt hours used. Not sure how it works in your neck of the woods but that is monthly, so right there it is already a month off of real time.

That'll need to be estimated and agreed on, sure. We'll need a whole system to track discrepancies in prices, but that's just a Google Earth overlay at this point.

This is just an estimate. I agree. But everything's an estimate. And at least in this case, we'll be estimating something that actually exists.

[barbarian]

These estimates are already in place, this is how they sell us energy already, worldwide.

I do not think anyone in their right mind would ever base an economy off of google maps to track dependencies. Also, that could take years to audit and that would be even further out of the any realm of real time.

[zarus tathra]

If users can agree on how much the "grid charge" from generator to plug will be, and if you can measure plug energy, then I don't see the problem.

Plus, there are already prototypes of internetworked systems for tracking energy usage. Ever hear of the "smart grid?"