Sodom and Gomorrah - historical "miracle"?

[Lolilla]

Hello everybody, I think I need your help in a debate with a Muslim! It is about a "historical" miracle in the Quran which I can't find a rebuttal for so I hope you have some ideas.

Here are the facts:
It is about the cities Sodom and Gomorra which were destroyed by God because of their inhabitants' way of life (homosexuality etc.). The bible says that God rained down fire and brimstone on them (Genesis 19, 23-29) and so says the Tanach as well. But the Quran speaks of this: "We turned the place completely upside down and rained down on them stones of hard-baked clay. There are certainly Signs in that for the discerning. They were beside a road which still exists. There is certainly a Sign in that for the believers." (Qur'an, 15:74-77).
This "road" is supposed to be a traders' route, he said, which was discovered recently by geographers... though I can't find any of this on the Internet. Anyway, he went on that recently it was discovered that Sodom and Gomorra were actually destroyed by a meteorite which came down from the sky (here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31 ... _asteroid/)  

I think it rather odd to say, but this actually seems a bit as if the quran was right. Strange thing is that I thought that Mohammed copied from the Bible, but apparently he didn't and he turned out to be right... Well, I do not want to believe that this is really some kind of "actual" miracle within the quran but for me I cannot find something wrong here. That's why I wanted to ask you all, because I really just can't say to this guy "you are right, that is rather miraculous.

Do you have any ideas??? I would be really grateful for help!
Regards!

[Sargon The Grape]

The existence or non-existence of two cities does not address the countless scientific implausibilities of the Quranic God. This is a practice Muslims share with Christians: they like to "prove" their respective holy texts with a trickle of passages that got things correct, rather than the ocean of facts they get wrong. Conversely, they like to use a similar trickle of "inconsistencies" in science (which is often just their own ignorance speaking) rather than address the entire cosmos' worth of things science consistently gets right.

Don't let this Muslim get you sidetracked on a minor issue that he can claim victory on. Force him the address the big questions that his book has no answers for.

[Plu]

This one is actually really, really simple. This event happened in 700BC, hundreds of years before it was described by any "holy people".

This makes it not any kind of prediction, but simply a description of events that happened, as viewed through the lense of hundreds of years of people who had no idea what happened passing the story on from generation to generation.

[Lolilla]

This one is actually really, really simple. This event happened in 700BC, hundreds of years before it was described by any "holy people".

This makes it not any kind of prediction, but simply a description of events that happened, as viewed through the lense of hundreds of years of people who had no idea what happened passing the story on from generation to generation.

I think that his disc was only copied in 700BC, the event took place in 3123BC... isn't this a rather long period of passing stories? I just wonder why it says different things in the bible when Mohammed obviously copied lots from the bible, you know what I mean? But you think it is possible that the Arab people passed it on like that ("correctly") whereas the other people who wrote the bible later passed it on differently?

On the other hand - history dates Abraham about 1800BC... as Lot, the prophet who warned the people according to the scriptures, is his nephew, it is impossible that this meteorite destroyed the cities.

[leo]

In general arguing with a Muslim is worse than talking to a wall.

[Plu]

isn't this a rather long period of passing stories?

Not really. Civilizations have a way of passing stories on to the next generation.

I just wonder why it says different things in the bible when Mohammed obviously copied lots from the bible, you know what I mean?

Translation errors, re-interpretation, etc. Remember that these stories are written down again and again by people who have no idea what it's about. Sometimes they change things because they think they'll sound better. But in all situations they don't know the original story, and the story in the Qu'ran is in no way more accurate than that in the Bible; both just speak of something big coming from the skies.

You'd have a point if they'd called it an asteroid and explained from what orbit it came, but they don't. They just speak of gods throwing stones and fire from the sky, which just shows how they had no idea what actually happened.

[Sargon The Grape]

I just wonder why it says different things in the bible when Mohammed obviously copied lots from the bible, you know what I mean?

It's a well-documented fact that while oral tradition can preserve the original headline (in this case, "two cities destroyed"), the details get muddled in the re-telling until you eventually have a totally different story. This was actually demonstrated by my psychology professor by having myself and a couple classmates participate in a little experiment. She had the other participants stand outside while she read me a fictitious news article about a plane hijacking by the "People's Liberation Army." Nobody died, but the passengers "dealt with" this guy. I then had to repeat as much as I could recall to the next participant, and they to the next, and so on. In my version, I off-handedly said that the passengers "beat on him."

Here are the details that were preserved by the end:

• A plane was hijacked.
• The hijacker was from an army.

And here's the final version of the story:
"A man from the army hijacked a passenger airliner and killed several people before being killed by the passengers."

This change only took four people relaying the story. Now imagine what happens after 3000 years of oral tradition before anyone thinks to write it down. The point is, while the original headline may indeed be accurate, there's no way to preserve the details of the story over any period of time unless it's quickly written down.

[Bibliofagus]

This "road" is supposed to be a traders' route, he said, which was discovered recently by geographers... though I can't find any of this on the Internet.

People who make shit up should at least post it on the internet methinks.
And I found porn of it.

[Poison Tree]

I just wonder why it says different things in the bible when Mohammed obviously copied lots from the bible, you know what I mean? But you think it is possible that the Arab people passed it on like that ("correctly") whereas the other people who wrote the bible later passed it on differently?

"correctly"?

We turned the place completely upside down

Is this a literal turning upside down? Were the building stacked foundation over roof? Did only the buildings turn upside down or was the earth the town sat upon ripped out of the ground and overturned as well?
Regardless, that has nothing to do with an asteroid nor have I heard of the discovery of an entirely upside down town. Maybe it was only turned upside down metaphorically, like saying "it is a topsy-turvy world"?

rained down on them stones of hard-baked clay

asteroids are not made of clay

But that is really irreverent. Even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that Sodom and Gomorrah actually existed and were actually destroyed, that in no way proves how or why they were destroyed. If I were to say "god sent hurricane Katrina to destroy New Orleans because you touch yourself at night and my proof is the fact that hurricane Katrina really destroyed New Orleans" you would rightly think I was full of shit and simply assuming my conclusion. Saying that "[maybe] an asteroid hit the earth in Austria and [could possible] have cause destruction in the middle east" does nothing to prove that two particular cities in the middle east were destroyed by Muslim god because of gayness. Hell, Russia was hit by a space rock just this year; I didn't notice anyone jumping up and down yelling "Putin is gay, Putin is gay, Jihad, Allahu Akbar"

People found remnants of a destroyed city (or naturally occurring geographic features they thought looked like a destroyed city) and made up an explanation for how and why it was destroyed.

[Lolilla]

We turned the place completely upside down

Where is this from?  

But that is really irreverent. Even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that Sodom and Gomorrah actually existed and were actually destroyed, that in no way proves how or why they were destroyed. If I were to say "god sent hurricane Katrina to destroy New Orleans because you touch yourself at night and my proof is the fact that hurricane Katrina really destroyed New Orleans" you would rightly think I was full of shit and simply assuming my conclusion. Saying that "[maybe] an asteroid hit the earth in Austria and [could possible] have cause destruction in the middle east" does nothing to prove that two particular cities in the middle east were destroyed by Muslim god because of gayness. Hell, Russia was hit by a space rock just this year; I didn't notice anyone jumping up and down yelling "Putin is gay, Putin is gay, Jihad, Allahu Akbar"

People found remnants of a destroyed city (or naturally occurring geographic features they thought looked like a destroyed city) and made up an explanation for how and why it was destroyed.

Yes, but I think the point is supposed to be, that it is destroyed in the way the Quran says (stones raining -> meteor) and not as the bible says, you know what I mean? He said that this would be proof that the quran is right and the bible had been distorted over the years.

But apart from that, I think the idea of punishment for gayness is so typically religious. Sad.

[Lolilla]

We turned the place completely upside down

Where is this from?  

Oh god, sorry, never mind, found it.  :-D Stupid...

[Shiranu]

Not really. Civilizations have a way of passing stories on to the next generation.

This. There are stories that date back thousands of years that have been mythologised that are still told to this day in folk lore around the world.

If Sodom and Gamora were were destroyed by a meteor, which I have never heard of till today (or even that the cities were confirmed to have existed), then it isn't impressive. We did not have accurate means of recording history back then and stories became myth. We have an event that happened and no way to record it... therefor someone made up a story later on about how god threw a rock from the sky because, during this era, people would have no concept of a meteor, and it stuck.

[Poison Tree]

I decided to take a second bite at the apple, so to speak. Let us look at the actual link provided:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31 ... _asteroid/
It is worth noting in passing that this is a tabloid site with an oft criticize science section. But let us move on to the text of the article. What they have is a copy of a drawing which they have used computers to "read" against star-charts. Half of the tablet (actually it looks like only half has any drawing to begin with, so it's more like 1/4th now) describes an object "which "to an error better than one degree is consistent with an impact at Köfels"". So we are asked to accept that an astronomer noted--by sight--the path of an asteroid, drew it into a palm-sized picture which was copied who knows how many times between 3123 BC and 150 BC, all while preserving an accuracy of "better than one degree". How stretched is your credulity?

From there we get into the part about fall out from this blowing over "Levant, Sinai, and Northern Egypt" and incinerating everyone and everything it comes into contact with. So now we are asked to believe that a civilization went to the effort of preserving the record that "a sky object flew that way" and not "a large explosion happened far off over the sea. Black clouds drifted in which rained down fire. The destruction was complete. Any man, woman, animal, building or plant caught under the clouds died in unquenchable flames."

But even setting that all aside, the article says

While the biblical fate of the legendary dens of vice ("Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens" - Genesis 19:24) sits nicely with the asteroid theory, it's never been categorically proven that they actually existed in their suspected location close to the Dead Sea.

Notice 1)biblical, not Quaranical. After all, the article says that "black plume" and "ground heat" would have killed people in the middle east , not that the asteroid hit the middle east [it did not, it hit Austria, apparently] and 2)the towns have not been found/proven to have existed.

[Lolilla]

Ok, I think the one with the cities really is bullshit...
But I found another one where I have a serious problem: http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_05.html
Unfortunatly, every word of this is true, that "Pharaoh" wasn't used at the time of the prophet Josef, and that it was used at time of Moses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh
And that the Bible always uses Pharaoh, with Josef and Moses.

I am really confused now.  :( Could you please help me refute this?? I just don't see a natural explanation.

[Sargon The Grape]

Ok, I think the one with the cities really is bullshit...
But I found another one where I have a serious problem: http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_05.html
Unfortunatly, every word of this is true, that "Pharaoh" wasn't used at the time of the prophet Josef, and that it was used at time of Moses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharaoh
And that the Bible always uses Pharaoh, with Josef and Moses.

I am really confused now.  :( Could you please help me refute this?? I just don't see a natural explanation.

It's a more recent book with better historical fact-checking. It's no different than a movie about Africa made today portraying the place better than a 1930's Tribal Africa movie; it's still a work of fiction, but the fact-checking was improved upon.