I'm offended by what you said!

[Smartmarzipan]

seems people say this alot these days.

the latest example is the idiot senator here in colorado who thinks eating fried chicken makes you poor. now this isn't about her, its about how today it seems there are certain things you can say, wrong or right that people instead of engaging in debate try to shut you down by saying what you said is offensive.

an example that will ring true here is saying atheist stuff to a christian and they say "I'm offended!" instead of trying to argue.

I actually think that society would be better off if wrong viewpoints were challenged instead of silenced.

in other words the black senator should have stood up and argued why the fried chicken lady is an idiot. NOT simply whine about being offended and how dare she say that.

why shouldn't people say what they believe? you don't agree? argue with them.

a good example is me. I wondered why a woman being drunk but verbally saying yes is rape.

she did say yes, and nobody forced her to drink and then be a dumbass.

had I said this on PZ Myers website, I'd have just been shut down. called a rape apologist, offensive, the end. they feel self righteous, I remain convinced of my view.

instead I mentioned this to a friend of mine in real life who is a feminist and she simply challenged me. she pointed out how its stupid to leave car keys in your car, but if you do, a person stealing it is still a thief, right? yeah. then she mentions kids and the mentilly disabled and how they can't consent even if they say yes because their judgement is impaired. just like a drunks.

which is why its rape.

now I agree that it is rape. I was wrong. my view was challenged by debate. I changed my view.

this wouldn't have happened if people just shut me down by crying about being offended.

so what do you think?

I'm know I'm going a little off topic on the whole "I'm offended" thing, but I don't think saying "yes" to sex while drunk is rape. Here's MY argument.

Saying "yes, let's have sex" is called consent, whether you're drunk or not. Being drunk does not give you license to excuse behavior you might regret later (and blame it on someone else!). We hold drunk people responsible for all their other actions, so why not saying "yes" to sex? If we let women say "yes" while drunk and then let them call it "rape" when they're sober, then no drunk person in the world should be held accountable for their actions, either. So much for DUIs and alcohol-fueled violence! They made a mistake, they weren't thinking clearly! No...that's crap, in my opinion.

Now, if the woman is unconscious and incapable of giving consent (or even moving), then it's rape. That's the difference. Bad decisions while inebriated do not equal being raped. Only being taken advantage of when no consent was given is rape.

Look, I feel bad for women who go out and get plastered only to end up in bed with a jerk, but YOU SAID YES. You willingly went into their bed, had your fun, and then felt bad about the next day because you got your inhibitions back. You can't blame someone for not knowing what your own limitations are when you gave them consent.

And that's how I feel about that.

[hillbillyatheist]

LOL try saying that on PZ myers website. you'd be banned in five seconds.

you surprise me with your take. being an open feminist and such. seems most feminists would not only disagree with you but call you a rape apologist. they're full of shit to say that but they would, hence my surprise. but then who ever said feminists all agree on everything? LOL

anyway, you have a point. however its at least sleezy to keep a womans glass full so she'll have sex with you, when she wouldn't do it sober.

it's not rape like roofies, or forced, but it can be like sex with a kid or retarded person. maybe a kind of statutory rape. you took advantage of a person while they were impaired. I can see the validity in the analogy that just because somebody leaves their keys in the car and the door open doesn't give you a right to take advantage of them and steal the car.

I don't hold a strong view on this either way, but I know I wouldn't do it.

[Plu]

If you try and get someone drunk and then have sex with them, I would qualify that as something completely different as when someone gets themselves drunk and then has sex with someone.
And even then, you can just say "no thanks" when someone keeps offering to fill up your drink.

I agree with smartmarzipan; drunk people should be held responsible for the shit they pull while drunk. Alcohol is not an excuse that allows us to break the law and fuck things up without facing the consequences. It's your own choice to impair your own judgement, and you'll just have to suffer the outcome. If you don't like what you do while drunk, instead of blaming everyone else, just stop drinking and the whole problem goes away.

And the analogy works, kinda, until you get to the point where you leave the keys in, the door open, and then tell some guy "Oh yeah step in, take it for a ride, go have fun. I don't want it anymore."
Even while drunk, at some point you're still giving actual, real consent by saying "yes, I would like to have sex with you".

[the_antithesis]

Saying "yes, let's have sex" is called consent, whether you're drunk or not. Being drunk does not give you license to excuse behavior you might regret later (and blame it on someone else!).

Yeah. Being drunk doesn't excuse you from breaking the law, either.

My ex once got totally trashed and walked down to the park in the village in the middle of the night. She was found lying on the ground near someone's house screaming, saying she had been raped by some kids who were playing basketball in that park in the middle of the night. Teenagers, I assume. But there simply was no evidence to support this, including the security camera from the nearby parking lot. So the investigator had to convince her to not file a report because she could get a false report charge. Being drunk and hallucinating the entire thing would not protect her from this.

Frankly, I'm of two minds. I can believe there are creeps out there who manage to manipulate people into drinking too much to make them more agreeable to having sex with them. However, they aren't the ones who drank all that alcohol, now are they? People have to be responsible for their own actions or else the whole concept of blame or wrongdoing becomes meaningless.

[Smartmarzipan]

LOL try saying that on PZ myers website. you'd be banned in five seconds.

you surprise me with your take. being an open feminist and such. seems most feminists would not only disagree with you but call you a rape apologist.

I feel like you don't know that many feminists.....maybe we run in different circles.
 

it's not rape like roofies, or forced, but it can be like sex with a kid or retarded person. maybe a kind of statutory rape.

So what do you make of 2 drunk people fucking each other? Do they both go to jail? Or are they both victims?

Look, I'm just saying, if there is a voluntary "yeah, let's fuck" involved, I don't see why anyone should go to jail, lowered inhibitions be damned.

[hillbillyatheist]

LOL I see two drunks as like two kids. they aren't pedophiles. LOL

its not the same as with an adult and a kid.

so two drunks is different from one person trying to get the other drunk to fuck 'em.

I don't hold a strong view either way on this but one angle to consider is signing a contract.

if you get somebody drunk and then have them sign a contract it won't hold water in court. sex could be seen in the same way.

is not a strong view as I see good arguments on both sides here, but this is certainly a good example for this thread on a topic with good stuff to consider on both sides, while some would want to just shut down the conversation with "HOW DARE YOU EVENE SAY THAT!" kinda stuff.

[PopeyesPappy]

Laura, can I buy you a drink?

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Let em be offended. If you're right then opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink.

[Smartmarzipan]

is not a strong view as I see good arguments on both sides here, but this is certainly a good example for this thread on a topic with good stuff to consider on both sides, while some would want to just shut down the conversation with "HOW DARE YOU EVENE SAY THAT!" kinda stuff.

Sorry for kind of derailing....I know this was about people being offended with nothing else to offer but their indignation and how much that sucks.

Buuuut.....sometimes when people say something really stupid, I don't offer counter-arguments, either. I just tell them they're fucking stupid and move on because I don't feel like it's worth it. So, it's worth asking yourself if you've said something really stupid when someone just says "Fuck you, that's offensive!" and walks away.....

/playingDevil'sAdvocate

[Smartmarzipan]

Laura, can I buy you a drink?

Shit, you can buy me five, as long as they ain't cheap.

[PopeyesPappy]

Five Grey Goose dirty martinis coming right up!

[hillbillyatheist]

is not a strong view as I see good arguments on both sides here, but this is certainly a good example for this thread on a topic with good stuff to consider on both sides, while some would want to just shut down the conversation with "HOW DARE YOU EVENE SAY THAT!" kinda stuff.

Sorry for kind of derailing....I know this was about people being offended with nothing else to offer but their indignation and how much that sucks.

Buuuut.....sometimes when people say something really stupid, I don't offer counter-arguments, either. I just tell them they're fucking stupid and move on because I don't feel like it's worth it.

we're all guilty of it. myself included. just remember sometimes its the teabagger thinking the same thing when you try to defend abortions or health care, or atheism.

we all have hot button issues, but the only real way to seek progress is to actually have a conversation.

sometimes all of us can just get so frustrated with people we disagree with that we forget that.

So, it's worth asking yourself if you've said something really stupid when someone just says "Fuck you, that's offensive!" and walks away.....

/playingDevil'sAdvocate

its possible but then you'd have to think likewise when a teabagger or some such does that to you.

[Smartmarzipan]

Five Grey Goose dirty martinis coming right up!

*Gak!*  :-&

It's like you don't even know me.

I'm more of an Amaretto or Long Island Ice Tea kinda gal....

[billhilly]

If you try and get someone drunk and then have sex with them, I would qualify that as something completely different as when someone gets themselves drunk and then has sex with someone.
And even then, you can just say "no thanks" when someone keeps offering to fill up your drink.

Interesting discussion.  Just throwing this out there but..  What about the pickup artist who intentionally sets out to psychologically manipulate someone into having sex with him?  Is it different, better or worse if you use polished bullshit instead of alcohol?

[PopeyesPappy]

Five Grey Goose dirty martinis coming right up!

*Gak!*  :-&

It's like you don't even know me.

I'm more of an Amaretto or Long Island Ice Tea kinda gal....

Whatever you desire. As long as it is intoxicating.