double standards

[Johan]

This is a sincere, good post, so thank you. That's pretty refreshing. But overall, I think men ended with the 'better' end of that deal and has the power to make difference. If we can improve the existing situation for women, it would be improved for men; man and women: so for the human. Improvement starts from the bottom of the 'hierarchy' pyramid.

Men did indeed end up with the better deal. And that's why the second to last sentence in my post cannot be emphasized enough. Don't discriminate or treat anyone as a lessor person. The thing is, my power to change the fact that men still today get a better deal than women begins and ends with me.

If I had the power to make all business' pay women equally to men for equal work, I would do it. But I don't have that power. If I had the power to motivate household cleaning product companies to show men using their products in their advertising as often as they show women, I would do it. But I don't have that power either. The only time you see a man in a vacuum cleaner ad is when its that dude from Dyson talking about how awesome he is for being German and designing such an great product. But when they show the Dyson vacuum being used? Yeah, that would be a women using it. If I could change that, I would. But Germans tend to be douchebags about that sort of thing I really don't want to start carpet bombing Berlin again over it. Ok that's a joke and probably a bad one, but I think I've made my point.

I personally endeavor to not discriminate. But as I long ago lost my faith in the ability of my vote to represent my voice in our current political system, I don't really have any power to change the world beyond my own personal choices. If I could I would, but I can't so I don't.

[hillbillyatheist]

Well, to be perfectly blunt, the average man is bigger, stronger, and more aggressive than the average woman.  There's a double standard because men and women, on average, are not physically equal.  There are different physical standards and expectations in the military and in sports for a reason.  

Watching that video I felt quite a bit different watching the man hit the woman than the woman hitting the man.  My gut reaction when I saw the man abusing the woman was that she was trapped, she needed help, and the guy needed a serious ass whooping.  She didn't look like she could physically defend herself against him and it seemed that she was trapped.  The man was physically controlling her, tossing her around like a rag doll.
Now when I saw the woman hitting the man, I felt sorry for the guy and a little embarrassed for him.  The big difference between the two is that the man probably could have physically defended himself and could have at least got away from the situation if his aggressor persisted, whereas the woman probably couldn't.

Actually the guy cannot defend himself. If he fights back, he's a woman beater, And anybody who sees it will kick his ass, no matter who started it. If nobody sees it and he calls the cops he'll be the one to go to jail. If he doesn't fight back and tries to get help people will just laugh at him for being beat up by a girl

[Johan]

Its how our society works and double standards are a part of that. Making your peace with that involves realizing that one can treat everyone equally without necessarily treating everyone exactly the same. At least that's how it went for me.

So double standards exist. They exist because we're people that's how we act. Don't discriminate or treat anyone as a lessor person. But don't get too hung up on the fact that we treat the girls differently than we treat the guys.

How then, do you treat everyone equally by not treating them the same on a large scale, such as employment laws, criminal sentencing, child custody etc etc.?

The focus of both the television piece and my post was on social interactions. Employment laws and criminal sentencing are an entirely different matter. But I addressed that in other posts above. You don't discriminate and you don't treat others as lessor people. Like I said in my post above, I do that in my own life to fullest extent possible. But I don't vote because I've never seen it make a difference and I don't make employment law and I don't sentence criminals nor do I want to.

[Johan]

EDIT: That's also why I find very hurtful, emotionally hostile when men of the forum generally not taking women's side in a women issue thread, but bring up some minority radical sexist group and start with what is happening to them and how women are actually the side to blame....  :(

I'm guessing this isn't directed toward me. And while I want to very clear to point out that I'm not placing any blame here, I'd also like to note that comments like this one which contain phrases like 'men of the forum' tend to get under my skin. Because a phrases like 'men of the forum' are very rarely followed by statements like 'are the most awesome guys on the planet'. Usually its followed by some opinion or reason why men suck.

I try my best not to be one of those assholes that do shitty things to women. But because I have a penis, I get lumped in with them when statements like the one above get thrown around. Its not your fault and I'm sure it wasn't your intention. But it does make me feel singled out a bit whenever it happens and I have to remind myself that it probably isn't directed toward me even though it reads that way.

[Icarus]

So you feel as a man exactly like what I feel as a woman, when I open my mouth about women's issues most men of this forum lumps me with some radical, fascist sexist feminazi group, because I have a vagina? And call me 'man hating cunt' or similar things, attack me with left and right by thanking each others' posts and treat me as if I am lying or accusing them with some crime, talking about something that doesn't exist? I am guessing those are not terms of endearment... And I am not saying you did/do this.

It's not just me, but other female members of the forum brought this same issue several times. Even with all this bullshit I suffer from, I keep engaging with these titles, not giving up talking bout this with any of those guys, even though I AM SINGLED OUT and INSULTED with the same bullshit every fucking time.

But on the other hand,  your male ego couldn't handle something obviously not directed at you, which was just written to raise awareness to what we suffer in this little community in pretty light expression, because it was convenient with your post which was found sincere. And this is something true and to everyone's face. See one of your penis buddies already thanked your post. I am sure there are some others to come.

What a double standard...

Yes, this is what men of the forum do. This is the general rule. It's not more insulting than the situation itself. If you're going to feel uncomfortable with it, feel it when it is done to every group, not just one group that has the same genitals with you.

I think this can be applied to everyone on this forum not just the men. The first and only time I posted in a thread related to gender equality you responded as if I was a misogynistic womanizer. It really took me aback because I've never thought of myself in that way, especially when I was suggesting equal treatment (in a small aspect of society) not ranting like that new post by bericks999. It would have been nice to question me on the intention of the post instead of jumping the gun, as you are saying many men here do (which I don't doubt, everyone does it). Which is why don't think you can exclude yourself and other women from this situation. I'm not taking sides, just trying to say we're all human.

[Johan]

But on the other hand,  your male ego couldn't handle something obviously not directed at you, which was just written to raise awareness to what we suffer in this little community in pretty light expression, because it was convenient with your post which was found sincere. And this is something true and to everyone's face. See one of your penis buddies already thanked your post. I am sure there are some others to come.

My ego couldn't handle it? I think  you're reading a bit into what I wrote there. I said it annoys me. My ego is just fine. And believe it or not, I am not buddies with every other man on the planet. We're not all in cahoots to keep the women folk down. I have no idea who thanked me nor do I care. I think I've made it pretty clear that it bothers me when men treat women like shit. I don't do it and I don't endorse it. But I also don't like being lumped into the category of men who do. Because of that, I tend to choose my words carefully when writing about things involving either gender. If you don't want to do the same then you don't want to do the same. But I have every fucking right to be annoyed by it and I am. That was my point and nothing more.

[Johan]

----------

And NO. It's not something we all do, because we are humans. Women don't do that here in this forum. In fact, most of the things posted on men issues are posted by or written in gender threads by women. On the other hand, men of the forum jumps in women issue -also children issue- threads to bring up their own issues in the worst way, trying to beat down what is presented by women AND when told to post some thread specific to this, no one does anything and just ignores.

Because the objective here is to 'win' a thread online, to look smart and hold some ground; being able to give a hot shot come back to beat down women; also a popularity contest among themselves, not trying to talk about any real issues.

And if a female doesn't settle down with this main stream attitude, acting politically correct and couth, leaving the thread as soon as it's invaded, she gets every bullshit coming her way. Basically, "Either accept it or shut the fuck up. Obviously you are wrong and untrustworthy, you have a vagina bitch, we outnumber you." This never changes. Rape thread, sex thread, gender thread...etc. Never. There are a very few men -one or two?- who tries to get in some real conversation. Other main stream posts are along the lines of "I don't give a damn what female rape victims face, because false accusations do exist and its horrible for men, irreversible".  

But obviously this is what we deserve, because we are women. We should be ready to take every single insult, negative attitude if we want to talk about these subjects, while a single, light sentence stating a fact about men of the forum gets under the fragile male ego and celebrated when expressed.

Wow. Just, wow. I guess I missed the memo about the war on women that men are undertaking here because I wasn't aware that it had reached the level of never let a woman win any debate no matter what simply because she's a woman. But then again I'm a man so I'm part of the problem I guess. There's nothing more to say I guess. You win. Congratulations. Sucks being you. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go oppress women in other threads lest they get the idea that I think they should be equals.

[Aroura33]

First let me say, interesting video, and I think it does raise legitimate points.

Second, let me say, as a women, that I am embarrassed by DrunkenShoe's continued raving outbursts.  It must make some of the guys around here really think woman ARE emotionally unstable.  We cannot ever have a reasonable discourse if gender is even an issue lightly touched on, let alone the actual issue.  Now I remember why I had stopped visiting here much...again.  Some people here are really, really making meaningful conversations on many topics difficult.

Anyway, sorry, but that is how I feel.

[Icarus]

Icarus, I didn't treat you as a misogynistic womanizer, I blamed you with being clueless. You told me that you were refused a scholarship from an institution which declared publicly they are giving scholarship first to women. And I found out this by the link you provided me, I explained you that this is called affirmative action. You asked me what that was and after I explained that to you, you said you didn't believe that women are oppressed. You also said you were being oppressed by that university's policy. When you joined to that thread everything was pretty exhausted as a result of the bullshit I described above and I called you ignorant, clueless and told you that it wasn't my job to educate you about a very main basic world culture issue -my exact words were 'a gangren wound of human culture' if I am not mistaken- when you asked me to provide some links. I am sure I gave you hard time, but please represent it correctly.


----------

And NO. It's not something we all do, because we are humans. Women don't do that here in this forum. In fact, most of the things posted on men issues are posted by or written in gender threads by women. On the other hand, men of the forum jumps in women issue -also children issue- threads to bring up their own issues in the worst way, trying to beat down what is presented by women AND when told to post some thread specific to this, no one does anything and just ignores.

Because the objective here is to 'win' a thread online, to look smart and hold some ground; being able to give a hot shot come back to beat down women; also a popularity contest among themselves, not trying to talk about any real issues.

And if a female doesn't settle down with this main stream attitude, acting politically correct and couth, leaving the thread as soon as it's invaded, she gets every bullshit coming her way. Basically, "Either accept it or shut the fuck up. Obviously you are wrong and untrustworthy, you have a vagina bitch, we outnumber you." This never changes. Rape thread, sex thread, gender thread...etc. Never. There are a very few men -one or two?- who tries to get in some real conversation. Other main stream posts are along the lines of "I don't give a damn what female rape victims face, because false accusations do exist and its horrible for men, irreversible".  

But obviously this is what we deserve, because we are women. We should be ready to take every single insult, negative attitude if we want to talk about these subjects, while a single, light sentence stating a fact about men of the forum gets under the fragile male ego and celebrated when expressed.

Ya, I should not have posted. For the third time you've misquoted me and tried to discount my argument by making me look like an idiot. I'm sorry I tried to approach you again politely, you've made it quite clear that you only wish to insult me instead of having an adult discussion.

I actually said I was disappointed I couldn't apply to all the scholarships because they were ONLY given to women. The first time you misquoted me on this you said that I couldn't get into university because I couldn't get a scholarship awarded only to women, this time you were less accurate in some ways and more in others. I was also initially berated by Sabrina and Mermaid but Sabrina quickly went to problem solving and Mermaid was happy to provide me with a long list of statistical evidence on the topic. If you weren't interesting in helping someone who was slightly less educated on the topic as yourself you should either try to help or not engage. I come across people daily who say things that show they are wildly ignorant of basic scientific principles and instead of berating them for being 'stupid' I either try to help them understand or not engage. Especially if the person is a 1 time 'ignorance' offender.

Yes, this is something all humans do. I grew up as a male, thus I can sympathise with the male perspective on gender issues more easily because all of my life experiences are as a male. Just like you grew up as a female and have experienced everything in your life as a female. It's just one of thousands of inherent biases we have as humans, we're living organisms driven by logic and emotion never just one.

If I grew up as a farmer and heard of peoples farms being taken away I would care way more than I do as I am now, because I don't have any life experiences growing up on a farm.

You notice that you get ganged up more as woman on this website because the vast majority of people posting on here are men. If this website was mostly women you would see the opposite effect. You can point this issue out but getting rid of it is basically impossible.

I'd also like to point out that maybe you're finding only 1-2 males willing to 'get into a real conversation' because you immediately become hostile towards anyone that presents an opposing view.

[Nonsensei]

We have help lines and support groups for both men and women in abusive relationships. So while our first reaction is different depending on the aggressor, the resources to available to the victim are the same regardless of gender. While individuals might have the double standard, I don't think society does anymore.

My understanding is that there are over 1400 publicly funded battered women's shelters in the US while there are zero publicly funded battered men's shelters. If a battered women's shelter is federally funded then they cannot turn away men. But if it is just state funded they can.

Related funsies:

In nonreciprocallyviolent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and more than 1 in 4 men (28.5%) in the United States have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

For example, this 32-nation study by the University of New Hampshire found women are as violent and controlling as men in relationships worldwide.    www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/em_0605 ... cfm?type=n   http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID41E2.pdf

http://ncfm.org/2009/01/issues/domestic-violence/

So I guess 1 in 4 men being victims doesnt even merit mention in mainstream discourse much less meriting even one men's shelter.

[hillbillyatheist]

LOL can you picture a man going to a federally woman's shelter? he may be allowed by law but how much sympathy would he get from the workers and female victims there?

[Icarus]

You did this exact thing to me once before, I told you that you had a fish memory and quoted those posts one by one remember? Now you're doing the same thing. And you're completely misrepresenting your own position back then. You kept telling Mermaid and Sabrina the same thing that you didn't believe women were oppressed. They dropped the conversation after that. I am sure they were more polite, we are all different. And I don't need to act like someone else to satisfy some kid who had no idea what were talking about here 6 months ago about this basic issue and its main terms, calling me ignorant about it.

You're exactly right, except you missed how that ended because you left the conversation. Sabrina sent me a well phrased message intended to help give me perspective on the issue, which it did. Mermaid, as I said in my last post, realized I wasn't an idiot and provided me with a list of sites containing statistics on the topic so I could educate myself. The difference between you and the other two is they actually tried to help me instead of just getting upset that I wasn't born with their perspective on life. Why do you keep trying to insult my intelligence and call me a kid? I have an M.Sc is biochemistry and biotechnology focusing on enzyme mechanics. I understand a great deal about the natural living universe, but not very much about social issues. When I asked you to provide some evidence and you didn't you appeared very ignorant of the topic because usually people informed on a topic have quick and easy access to several resources. I've never responded to anything in the science section without providing at least one reference. This allows the other person to educate themselves if they so chose and solves the issue quickly and easily. Saying you're right without being able to show it creates conflict because trusting the opinion of strangers is something skeptics (EVERYONE ON THIS WEBSITE) don't do without evidence.

As I repeated it several times then I was never interested. and I wasn't rude to you to begin with either.

You have yet to reply to one of my posts without insulting me  

No, I don't treat men here on their gender issues, the way they treat me in gender threads. Before Johan gave me some emotional nonsense response, I was perfectly content with counting the double standard against men and it reasons. I believe my post to SF is the most detailed one written in this thread.

He're something very interesting, you're separating male and female gender issues when they're one in the same. How are you supposed to fix a social issue if you're excluding half of society from the discussion.

I pointed this out several times. No as you see, women can act the same Aruora has this hobby of posting like she did now in threads just to insult me WITHOUT any other contribution. She gets off it, I guess. I am not sure you need to ask her. I lost count. And I am on her ignore list by the way,lol.

And as I said, you can point it out but changing it is impossible.

Because I am exhausted of getting the same bullshit over and over again. When I am approached reasonably I act that way. I yet to have that experience in gender threads.

This might sound really bad, but have faith in humanity at least when you first engage someone. Most people are misinformed but willing to learn if the argument is presented logically and concisely. If you're exhausted of trying to educate people on your cause I suggest you stop fighting for it (or pick your battles). Hostility will only detract from the issues of your cause.

[Icarus]

My understanding is that there are over 1400 publicly funded battered women's shelters in the US while there are zero publicly funded battered men's shelters. If a battered women's shelter is federally funded then they cannot turn away men. But if it is just state funded they can.

Related funsies:

In nonreciprocallyviolent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

More than 1 in 3 women (35.6%) and more than 1 in 4 men (28.5%) in the United States have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime.

For example, this 32-nation study by the University of New Hampshire found women are as violent and controlling as men in relationships worldwide.    http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2006/may/ ... cfm?type=n   http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID41E2.pdf

http://ncfm.org/2009/01/issues/domestic-violence/

So I guess 1 in 4 men being victims doesnt even merit mention in mainstream discourse much less meriting even one men's shelter.

Thanks for the information, (Thank you as well SF). .edu and .gov are amazing.

[Icarus]

I know you won't believe me, but I wasn't trying to insult you with the word 'kid'. I was thinking how difficult to talk about this with young men. While old men are very different with any subject on women.

I don't think you are an idiot. I reiterate, I wasn't interested in helping you. And as I tried to explain in my first post I was aggravated and exhausted. And I am not mermaid or Bri. We are different people all 7 billion of us. I get pissed off easily and become uncouth, but if you get that I am actually sincere and honest and also warm when shown the same positive attitude you'd see I am not some monster people trying to show me as.

I do believe you, and thank you. I was getting so used to thinking you just wanted to insult me that I made the fatal error of assuming intent.

No I don't mean that way. The attitude is blaming women and bringing a man issue as in 'How about that' while speaking about a women's issue.

I think the 'How about that' reaction is just a defensive reflex that most people get when someone points out an issue concerning their demographic. Once you get past that you'll find out very quickly if the person is just deflecting because they refuse to acknowledge the issue or if they're just unaware of the issue and its scale (I was unaware of the scale, which is what the statistics showed me very quickly).

No it is not. If we know the reason how is that impossible. Besides we only need to improve it. I don't expect something perfect...

I only say it's impossible because a portion of society will always think that way no matter how hard you try and reason with them. I would really like to see this change but no method of change it has been found to date.

If I didn't have any hope, I would drop it after the first reaction I got. And not just gender threads, but also all those political threads... I would leave the forum. You may be right about picking people to talk, but then acting politically correct in real life is what I hate in the first place and believe what we suffer from. I mean it.

We should always be allowed to express ourselves as long as it can be done civilly. This is difficult to do sometimes because we all have our buttons. If there is one place on the internet where it could be done I would think this website would be it. Most of the time the issue boils down to miscommunication.

[Icarus]

I've told them that it is a defence mechanism and that they are being emotional, that they take it personally and that this is ridiculous as I did in this thread. (At first I said it normal, then on three occasions in different threads I called them pussies though)

Anyway, I don't think people who insult me even read my posts Icarus. It's just a developed behaviour. They see one thing and get back... I am sure I provoke them, but I am never the sole reason and they provoke me too. And in the end they do it without provocation. There is also this big cultural difference, I talk this way. Excitedly, bluntly with people I want to talk. I think people think this is somewhat made on purpose and it's impossible to change their impression. So never mind, really.

You changed 1 persons impression, I'd call that a productive day.