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Catholic Church "Miracles"

Started by Paolo, December 07, 2020, 12:58:43 PM

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drunkenshoe

#90
There is another thing about relics, artefacts, all sorts of cultural objects fo the past, historical monuments...etc related to their identification and evaluation in general, I think most people tend to miss and it is one of the reasons why they're so powerful beyond religous bullshit.

We were all born in the second half of 20th century or at the begining of that period and living under modern state standards -more or less/good or bad- we all have recieved some sort of a national and world history education in a linear sense. (I'll pass the linear thinking of history as the bullshit almost everyone here is aware.) This is actually a curriculum, not a real accumulation of knowledge. We all have some sort of a map of 'impressions' of foriegn cultures of the world, or ours as well as their places and backgrounds through human history in our heads.

Sometimes, this creates a natural, miyopic delusion as if people living in certain periods of the past -esp. the ones with written culture- did have some sort of an awareness, consciousness, or an idea that there is a connection between periods, eras before them, most importantly their connections to their own. The thing is, they don't. This is a fairly new idea for the obvious reasons, but most importantly because people had to discover periods over and over again. 

Then there are many manuscripts, texts and texts, chronicles and texts about some of these periods from ancient empires, generals, scholars, kings of the past. The pen holders, the clergy have already discovered and included in everything usable, right or wrong and correct or incorrect hundreds of years ago. That means politics (religion), making histories for monarchies, for god, for your king, for your dog's ass...etc.

These texts also got reproduced over and over again, because while obviously you can't say what kind of a homicidal bastard a cardinal is openly, you can always pull an ancient Roman story of a conspiracy, a dialogue maybe, and rewrite it with decsribing real, contemporray people with ancient names, in ancient places. You can do this anonymously, but you can do it with a pseudo names inspired by a real scholars and writers too.

So, the written source is a mess full of traps. But all that mess, lack of knowledge and scientific method, reasoning can't stop the human desire of recovering some 'truth' behind something; the natural human curiosity. What's this? What happened there? What happened then? What's the nature of this? What the fuck has been going on? OK, last one is me.

Interestingly enough, these discoveries of the past are largely owed to the intrigue driven by the conflicts between texts and objects, any kind and size of monuments because some of them are virtually uncorrupted compared to all other kind of evidence due their natural functions. Esp. coins, medals, signet rings, seals...etc. Even the awareness of this is a big, important step in history making.

We are talking about antiquarianism in simple terms and while in our time it is a very expensive hobby rich people have, it is also closely connected with the concepts of forgery -concerning texts at the beginning- which triggered the concept of 'criticism' as in recognising if something is authentic or not, and then created a main concept if you are to do that; context. There is a reason why all those terms are related to Roman law terms and medical terms derived from them. They're all some sort of detective story looking for a perpetrator concerning evidence, and tendencies with symptoms.

So, this business of chasing artefacts and replacing them into some contexts and places, narratives have this connnection to real history making and who we are; in some levels identities of nations (not in today's sense of course) and societies, aside from religous politics and it objectives.

However, it is of course again related to some means of political power, maybe in a bigger level than religous artefacts and miracle relics concerning history making, I dare say. Because finding naked figures of the false gods of those clever, sheet wearing heretics here and there is one thing, but accidentally discovering a grave of a man buried with his swords, weapons and his horse with that kind of harness, good amount of precious stones and golden objects, while digging a foundation for a hospital in the middle of Europe is completely another story. It has serious consequences, you can't leave that to historians and antiquarians, can you? 

Because obviously this is a real person who lived and died. And by the look of the precious loot, he is somebody important. Look at the harness and the weapons, he is a soldier. Oh look at the signet ring, he is a fucking king. Is he related to our king? What kind fo a kingdom he had? What did he believe in? Was he glorius and victorius, which battles he fought, which ones he won. How did he fight, how big was his army? You get the gist. Suddenly, it is far more bigger than a bunch of bones, with lots of rubies, golden bees and a dead horse.

So, yes they are all evidence of something, but only if you know which context to replace them. In this case, a preserved tongue of a saint is the evidence of the mechanism of a certain kind of faith; how religion works. It's not an evidence of the story, if miracles are real or the religion itself. Evidence doesn't work that way.

There is something undeniable about all kinds of historical artefacts, work of arts of the past, independent from their so called market value, beyond all that commercial bullshit, the information/knowledge in various contexts they have been placed and replaced over and over time again. They exist physically, right there in front of you. They are unique objects that they can't be reproduced because they belong to some time, something long gone. They evoke a sensational information, stimulation besides direct kind of information at times. By direct info, I mean a date, a name in inscriptions which are short and easy to do and can be put in small objects as well as huge monuments.

There is reason why people go to a museum because they want to see this or that world famous piece, but very often exit the building enchanted by a completely different one, again often not even widely heard of, sometimes even after getting dissapointed by something they desired to see whole their lives.

I accept that I'm a bit biased as an art historian but I do believe these objects have a powerful natural effect on us humans as animals creating art and culture beyond the bullshit pop culture Eric von Daniken and Dan Brown created. It's related to crushing concept of time, sense of history... the drive of trying to imagine the lives of people who live in the past...whatever you call it. 
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Cassia

Quote from: Paolo on December 27, 2020, 05:11:09 AM
Yikes. You really are a sick and paranoid little runt, now aren't you? I would be actually surprised if there aren't corpses of "theists" lying on your basement. In fact, I think I can smell the scent from here.

No, that's just the smell you get because your head (and your pickled tongue) are up your ass, poser. I don't have a basement so we just put your child rapists in the wood chipper and feed the fish.

Baruch

Quote from: Cassia on December 27, 2020, 07:28:58 AM
No, that's just the smell you get because your head (and your pickled tongue) are up your ass, poser. I don't have a basement so we just put your child rapists in the wood chipper and feed the fish.

Not all pedophiles are Catholic priests.  Not all non-pedophiles are moral.  So when are you going to Auschwitz?  Pull the Jew out of your own eye before you pull the Jew out of another's eye?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 26, 2020, 08:35:40 PM
That's why I never got married - I'd never marry a woman who would have me for a husband.

I think you underestimate your attractiveness.  You still need to meet the San Francisco Mary of Magdala ;-)  Which might be interesting if she was also a whore (as confused in folk Christianity).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

aitm

Catlics are a while different world of delusions. Never heard of a Methodist exorcism, or Mormon, or Baptist. Only catlics are bat shit crazy enough to think the ole devil is preying on them, and then conjure up a whole new farce to drive the little buggers out of an already deluded mind.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 26, 2020, 10:22:40 PM
Yeah, pretty much.  In science, the term "theory" refers to "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment.".  A theory is a theory for all time--until and unless somebody demonstrates that a fact or some facts have been demonstrated to be incorrect.  Then the theory is changed.  Unlike a theist belief, theories can be challenged and changed or altered when proven to be more accurate.  Belief/faith is only based on wishful thinking with no facts needed.

For you, Paolo what is a theory?  What is the value and place for belief/faith?  What is science for you--and do you think the scientific method has value?

Religious people trust different untrustworthy experts.  Back when almost everyone was illiterate, a graduate of a seminary was a genius by comparison.  What science have any of us confirmed beyond precarious common sense?  We rely on mass media who choose what is or is not science for us (unless you watch actual presentations by actual scientists and mathematicians on Youtube or in person).  How is relying on mass media which is political and communist working out for us?  Pravda = Truth in Russian.  The NYT, former employer of Karl Marx is trustworthy?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Paolo on December 27, 2020, 05:11:09 AM
Yikes. You really are a sick and paranoid little runt, now aren't you? I would be actually surprised if there aren't corpses of "theists" lying on your basement. In fact, I think I can smell the scent from here.

Some people are former Christians, some are even former Catholics.  You can't expect them to be receptive to fairness.  Do you expect Jews to be fair to Germans?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Paolo on December 27, 2020, 05:17:56 AM
I didn't answer Cassia's question because I didn't think it was a honest question at all-- it was a trap/bait. And my suspicion seems to have been confirmed by her last post.

Is there any honest question you would like me to respond?

Cassia wasn't here for the Semantics Wars ... she is new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVyc_pdjHNU&list=PLMF9QI2IvGC0LxrqdS25vwQ0qce8SqsaM

The war was so intense, the various protagonists had to escalate to meta-linguistics!
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#98
Quote from: aitm on December 27, 2020, 10:18:23 AM
Catlics are a while different world of delusions. Never heard of a Methodist exorcism, or Mormon, or Baptist. Only catlics are bat shit crazy enough to think the ole devil is preying on them, and then conjure up a whole new farce to drive the little buggers out of an already deluded mind.

Jews would beg to differ, most of whom are atheist then and now.  Germans are demons and Hitler is Satan ... for real.  And all Gentiles and all Gentile leaders (fuhrers) are the same, they simply go in and out of active/passive evil.  Being post-Jewish, I can see that Jews are Gentiles too ;-)

@drunkenshoe ... so you seek to be completely free of the past, free of culture, because like Rousseau you want to live in Canada with the kosher (un-corrupted) Indians?  Or implement world wide violent revolution to kill off the Nazis (anyone not woke)?  Or simply being aware of the "framing" of all thought and emotion, would result in change (new Soviet man) as if the Soviet Union took over the whole world (in another universe).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

SGOS

Quote from: Paolo on December 27, 2020, 05:17:56 AM
I didn't answer Cassia's question because I didn't think it was a honest question at all-- it was a trap/bait. And my suspicion seems to have been confirmed by her last post.

Is there any honest question you would like me to respond?
No.  I'm not that interested, and I would have little reason to trust you answer, anyway.

drunkenshoe

Quote from: aitm on December 27, 2020, 10:18:23 AM
Catlics are a while different world of delusions. Never heard of a Methodist exorcism, or Mormon, or Baptist. Only catlics are bat shit crazy enough to think the ole devil is preying on them, and then conjure up a whole new farce to drive the little buggers out of an already deluded mind.

Exactly like their muslim relatives around here. 'Exorcism' provides easy access to girls and boys, and young women in private. Has anyone ever heard of a demon possessing an old man or a woman? Any men? Maybe in some horror movie as a villain.


"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Baruch

Quote from: drunkenshoe on December 27, 2020, 11:37:16 AM
Exactly like their muslim relatives around here. 'Exorcism' provides easy access to girls and boys, and young women in private. Has anyone ever heard of a demon possessing an old man or a woman? Any men? Maybe in some horror movie as a villain.

Turkish Muslim exorcism would be more of a Central Asian Turkish thing, not an Arabic thing.  But I wouldn't count all shamen as pedophiles.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Paolo

#102
So with all the unsubstantiated vitriol against Catholics and Catholicism here, it seems that slander, after the standard mediocre ad hominem attacks of course, is the primary argumentative weapon of mainstream Internet atheism?

How disappointing, I must say!
Oh noes...I think I’m dead....

Baruch

Quote from: Paolo on December 27, 2020, 02:37:18 PM
So with all the unsubstantiated vitriol against Catholics and Catholicism here, it seems that slander, after the standard mediocre ad hominem attacks of course, is the primary argumentative weapon of mainstream Internet atheism?

How disappointing, I must say!

There are very few smart people in the world, and even fewer honest ones ;-(
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Paolo on December 27, 2020, 02:37:18 PM
So with all the unsubstantiated vitriol against Catholics and Catholicism here, it seems that slander, after the standard mediocre ad hominem attacks of course, is the primary argumentative weapon of mainstream Internet atheism?

How disappointing, I must say!
I asked you a couple of questions.  Are you going to answer them???
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?