Wuhan Corona virus

[Hydra009]

For someone who agrees with the idea, you sure seem to be hellbent on FUDing it beyond all reason.  Even the Republicans are starting to warm up to the idea, so I dunno what the problem is here.

There are plenty of other countries (pretty much every industrialized country) that managed the transition just fine.  We can seek guidance from them.  It sure beats the alternative: letting poor people die, letting price-gougers prosper, and letting them dictate our system.

[GSOgymrat]

Yes. Change will require change. That is my point. The problem is just switching over to a single payer system does not magically give us all the changes required to make healthcare in the US affordable enough to provide it to everyone. Reducing administrative costs by changing the current fee for service model isn't enough in and of it's self. There are other things driving up our healthcare costs that need to be addressed. Billing is only part of the problem with administrative costs. Compliance with government regulation is a huge burden on our healthcare system. Compliance with HIPAA is an expensive nightmare for providers. How do we change that without putting PHI at risk? How do we make it less expensive for drug manufacturers to bring new products to the market safely? How do we reduce malpractice costs?

The changes we need include fundamental changes to the way healthcare providers practice medicine. What do we do to reduce over use of expensive diagnostics? How do we fix scope of practice restrictions and clinical specialization?

How are we going to fix our education system is order to reduce healthcare professional workforce shortages?

My argument has never been the US shouldn't have universal healthcare. We should. It is that we need to address a lot of other issues that make our system more expensive in order to be able to afford it. Issues that are not fixed by simply switching over to a single payer system.   

I've said in the past that universal healthcare isn't a panacea. The goal of universal healthcare is to provide affordable healthcare to all citizens. The best way to do that is debatable but single-payer has a lot of advantages. In 2018 there were 27.5 million Americans who had no insurance and that doesn't count the number of people who are underinsured. Unfortunately, the Republicans, who control the executive branch, the Senate, and are stacking the courts, say they are waiting until after the 2020 election to disclose their healthcare plan, even though we are in a pandemic and heading for a global economic depression (We'll think about that tomorrow...). Based on the House Republican Study Committee, the general idea appears to be to shrink Medicaid so more individuals are in the private marketplace and have each state develop their own plans that vary in coverage and benefits. It seems to be the opposite of a single-payer system and their plan for universal coverage seems sketchy at best.

One would think that the current crisis would make it evident that healthcare access needs to be uncoupled from employment. 22 million people have recently filed for unemployment. How many of those people have lost their healthcare coverage? Yes, there is COBRA insurance but it's completely unaffordable for most people, especially people who have just lost their income. I feel like Republican's answer to everything is to reduce regulation and let the invisible hand of the marketplace work its magic. The problem is in order to participate in the healthcare marketplace individuals need a substantial income or a stable employer who is going to help fund healthcare and there are millions of Americans who are not in that situation.

[PopeyesPappy]

For someone who agrees with the idea, you sure seem to be hellbent on FUDing it beyond all reason.  Even the Republicans are starting to warm up to the idea, so I dunno what the problem is here.

There are plenty of other countries (pretty much every industrialized country) that managed the transition just fine.  We can seek guidance from them.  It sure beats the alternative: letting poor people die, letting price-gougers prosper, and letting them dictate our system.

So asking what the plan is equals hellbent on fuding it beyond all reason. Got it.

As far as guidance from other countries goes great. How did they handle some of the problems I've mentioned? Can't answer that? Want to know why? It's because they didn't have many of the problems I have mentioned to begin with. Hospitals weren't spending tens of billions of dollars trying to keep the fact that John Doe has HIV from becoming public knowledge.  Doctors in other places didn't prescribe every diagnostic procedure in the book before deciding on a treatment because they weren't worried about getting the shit sued out of them for a missed diagnosis. Nurses graduating from college didn't have to worry about living in poverty for years while they pay back student loans.

These problems aren't unsolvable. We just don't have a comprehensive plan to solve them. Without one we could fuck up our healthcare system even worse than it is now. If we do that, the result is not going to be what we want. 

[Baruch]

So asking what the plan is equals hellbent on fuding it beyond all reason. Got it.

As far as guidance from other countries goes great. How did they handle some of the problems I've mentioned? Can't answer that? Want to know why? It's because they didn't have many of the problems I have mentioned to begin with. Hospitals weren't spending tens of billions of dollars trying to keep the fact that John Doe has HIV from becoming public knowledge.  Doctors in other places didn't prescribe every diagnostic procedure in the book before deciding on a treatment because they weren't worried about getting the shit sued out of them for a missed diagnosis. Nurses graduating from college didn't have to worry about living in poverty for years while they pay back student loans.

These problems aren't unsolvable. We just don't have a comprehensive plan to solve them. Without one we could fuck up our healthcare system even worse than it is now. If we do that, the result is not going to be what we want.

Medical people are the priests of a new religion.  Dr Fauci is the new Pope.  Good thing they are all bleeding heard Democrats ;-)

Yes, the US really is just like Switzerland.  Of course if we were more like Switzerland, our people would have more than $500 in the bank for a rainy day, and much of that would be in gold, and our chocolates, cheese, cough drops and swatches would be much improved ;-))

Left Americans say ... every country other than the US is better than the US, including China.  Except that isn't even half true.  It would personally benefit me if Trump had sent me millions instead of $1200, I wouldn't give it back, and tell you all the f*$& yourselves, right?  Socialism is getting the government to do your own grifting, because you are too lazy to do it yourself.  Like young Bernie at the kibbutz.

[Baruch]

In actually good news:  a british WWII veteran raises millions of pounds for charity

I bet that gave him a hernia ;-)

[Baruch]

theres new reports trying to claim that the virus started by a dog instead of a bat, but the dog got the virus from the bat it ate and then it spread to humans when they killed and ate the dog. Somehow this makes it less bad from whoever thought this shit up.

Early Indian report said that it had HIV content ... so clearly created by gay terrorists?  Don't pick on dogs, even if you like cats more ;-)  Yes, wet markets are disgusting, particularly to vegetarians and Jains.  But it wasn't from a wet market, that is part of the Chinese coverup.  That is why the wet markets were re-opened, or do you think the Chinese have a death with ... on second thought, don't answer that ;-(

[Baruch]

For someone who agrees with the idea, you sure seem to be hellbent on FUDing it beyond all reason.  Even the Republicans are starting to warm up to the idea, so I dunno what the problem is here.

There are plenty of other countries (pretty much every industrialized country) that managed the transition just fine.  We can seek guidance from them.  It sure beats the alternative: letting poor people die, letting price-gougers prosper, and letting them dictate our system.

Singler Payer without other necessary changes ... bait and switch by the Dem party.  They only care about getting elected/re-elected.  These are politicians we are talking about.  They can't even do the job of a phlebotomist.  Useless.

Yes, you hate people telling you what to do (same as all other humans).  You also care for poor people (have you given away your income (before self isolating))?  Yes, price gouging in a pandemic (as opposed to normal times) is actually illegal.  People have been punished for that already.

[Baruch]

I've said in the past that universal healthcare isn't a panacea. The goal of universal healthcare is to provide affordable healthcare to all citizens. The best way to do that is debatable but single-payer has a lot of advantages. In 2018 there were 27.5 million Americans who had no insurance and that doesn't count the number of people who are underinsured. Unfortunately, the Republicans, who control the executive branch, the Senate, and are stacking the courts, say they are waiting until after the 2020 election to disclose their healthcare plan, even though we are in a pandemic and heading for a global economic depression (We'll think about that tomorrow...). Based on the House Republican Study Committee, the general idea appears to be to shrink Medicaid so more individuals are in the private marketplace and have each state develop their own plans that vary in coverage and benefits. It seems to be the opposite of a single-payer system and their plan for universal coverage seems sketchy at best.

One would think that the current crisis would make it evident that healthcare access needs to be uncoupled from employment. 22 million people have recently filed for unemployment. How many of those people have lost their healthcare coverage? Yes, there is COBRA insurance but it's completely unaffordable for most people, especially people who have just lost their income. I feel like Republican's answer to everything is to reduce regulation and let the invisible hand of the marketplace work its magic. The problem is in order to participate in the healthcare marketplace individuals need a substantial income or a stable employer who is going to help fund healthcare and there are millions of Americans who are not in that situation.

Where did employment benefits come from?  As a temporary measure, during WW II, to pacify union workers, at a time when pay raises were forbidden.  How is this temporary measure working out for you?  Typical government program.  Once in place, they can only add to the chaos, the status quo won't allow significant modification.  Health insurance has always been an insurance scam.  It doesn't work actuarially.  A plan that simply pays the medical people directly, without insurance getting in the way, would be better (whether from employer or government).  But your point is good, it shouldn't be coupled to the employer (are Hitler and Tojo dead yet?).

If Reagan forward hadn't screwed the blue collars, followed by screwing the white collars ... the average worker would make enough to pay for his/her own medical care.  If you want a cash flow buffer thru private health insurance, you could do that too.  That is what they do in Switzerland, the public option is for folks who don't have any income, medical welfare.  But you voters keep voting for the Duopoly, who only work for the wealthy and powerful.  It is because of the failure of most voters, that you are screwed.  Sheeple of the MSM.

[Baruch]

"Scientists Discover Alarming Coronavirus Mutation That Could Render Vaccine Useless" ... clickbait.  Mutation is what viruses do.  That is why a new flu vaccine is necessary every year, and why a "cold" vaccine is useless.  If it take 12 months to make a vaccine, it will be invalid against the strains out there then.  Bill Gates may still make billions off of it.  That and funding dangerous vaccine research at careless labs and testing on poor Africans.

"CONSERVATIVES STAGE "OPERATION GRIDLOCK" PROTEST AGAINST DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR OVER DRACONIAN LOCKDO.." ... Dems won't be happy until all the governor's offices in 50 states are aflame ;-)  While they replay Helter Skelter from their Beatles White album.  There are many Charlie Mansons out there, waiting for the signal ... if you run a certain Beatles LP backward, John Lennon says, Orange Man Bad.

[Munch]

I had some bad news today :(

Was reading my local papers app, and it's front headline mentioned two local heroes who were victims of the virus. I recognised one of them but couldn't quite remember, then I read the article. One of them was my childhood doctor, who was also there for my mum when my brother before I was born had contracted cancer. She was there when I was born with my mum, and there when I was diagnosed with diabetes, even took care of me when mum had to go home to pack a bag so she could stay in the hospital with me.

https://www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/18381993.paper-review-two-greats-lost-covid/

She retired years ago and not spoken to her for a long time. Turns out she had an infection and was in the hospital 3 weeks ago, explaining her weakened immune system.

I had a good cry with mum, thinking of the doctor who pretty much saved me and nursed me back to health as a child died to this thing. It's a wake up call :(

[Baruch]

During the 19th century Yellow Fever epidemics in Memphis TN, half the doctors died.  Yes, doctors aren't gods, but they are good people mostly.

[Hydra009]

These problems aren't unsolvable. We just don't have a comprehensive plan to solve them.

What if I told you that there are experts who know the finer details and know exactly how to make that transition and that I'm not one of them?

Without one we could fuck up our healthcare system even worse than it is now.

Stuff like this is where I get the FUDing vibe from.  Leaping to conclusions that this is going to be a disaster right off the bat without any reason.

Give me just one example of a country that tried to switch over to universal healthcare and it ended in the sort of disaster that you're claiming.  Then, I'll take your doomsaying as something other than manipulative fearmongering.

[Baruch]

What if I told you that there are experts who know the finer details and know exactly how to make that transition and that I'm not one of them?
Stuff like this is where I get the FUDing vibe from.  Leaping to conclusions that this is going to be a disaster right off the bat without any reason.

Give me just one example of a country that tried to switch over to universal healthcare and it ended in the sort of disaster that you're claiming.  Then, I'll take your doomsaying as something other than manipulative fearmongering.

Do you hire a hernia doctor to change your tire?  Why do you hire a politician to provide affordable medicine?

The NHS was initially indirectly paid for by the US Marshall Plan.  Initially after WW II in 1946, the US wouldn't give a dime to Britain .. because the US didn't want to pay for Labour party election promises (on an NHS originally proposed in 1944 by the Tories).  The Marshall Plan came about because of fear of Euro-communism if W Europe continued in post-war poverty.  Not because the US felt sad for the Brits.  Basically the US paid for Europeans to buy US products ... Europe couldn't produce their own initially.  That provided the tax base for Britain to pay for NHS itself.

Yes, idealists consider pragmatism to be fear mongering.  So, will you cut Welfare by 50% to pay for it?  Cut DoD by 50% to pay for it?  Cut SS by 50% to pay for it?  Increase income taxes by 50% to pay for it?  Otherwise you are just talking magic tree wishing.  Are you confused about liquidity dollar vs spending dollars?

[PopeyesPappy]

What if I told you that there are experts who know the finer details and know exactly how to make that transition and that I'm not one of them?
Stuff like this is where I get the FUDing vibe from.  Leaping to conclusions that this is going to be a disaster right off the bat without any reason.

Give me just one example of a country that tried to switch over to universal healthcare and it ended in the sort of disaster that you're claiming.  Then, I'll take your doomsaying as something other than manipulative fearmongering.

Show me an expert who has solved the problems I have listed. For that matter I'd be happy with a group of experts from multiple countries who have collectively solved most of the issues I've brought up even once among all the countries that have made this work. 

Show me a country that was basically in the same boat we are before making the change to single payer without a comprehensive plan to address the issues they knew they were going to have.

[Baruch]

"Italy gets a grovelling Apology from the EU and the promise of a Marshall Plan!" ... empty promises, there will be no Coronabonds.  What the EU wants is to have an EU wide tax system, to supercede the national tax systems.  A walnut shell game.

Glitch in Worldometer US Daily Deaths for 4/14, I check the day following … was 2767 on 4/15 now is 6185 on 4/16.  Not even US numbers are free from error.  CDC counts Covid deaths differently than Worldometer.

PS ... caused by variance in how NYC reports ...

"New York City today has reported 3,778 additional deaths that have occurred since March 11 and have been classified as "probable," defined as follows: “decedent [...] had no known positive laboratory test for SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) but the death certificate lists as a cause of death “COVID-19” or an equivalent""