Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?

[Unbeliever]

What are you scared of? Hell? I remember the day I realized for the first time that there is no such place. I was giddy with joy for days, maybe even weeks. No more fear of Hell! I didn't have to be concerned any more whether I believed in God the way he wanted me to. How can any Christian (or Muslim or Jew, for that matter) be certain that their religion is "the one, true religion"? There are, after all, many, many religions in the world, and they can't all be true. Just because a person, such as yourself, was born and raised to believe a particular religion, that doesn't automatically make it the right religion. Free yourself from your fear of hell and you'll be much happier, I expect.

[Syrimoon]

What are you scared of? Hell? I remember the day I realized for the first time that there is no such place. I was giddy with joy for days, maybe even weeks. No more fear of Hell! I didn't have to be concerned any more whether I believed in God the way he wanted me to. How can any Christian (or Muslim or Jew, for that matter) be certain that their religion is "the one, true religion"? There are, after all, many, many religions in the world, and they can't all be true. Just because a person, such as yourself, was born and raised to believe a particular religion, that doesn't automatically make it the right religion. Free yourself from your fear of hell and you'll be much happier, I expect.

U had that for years actually. I was a pantheist who believed that all experienced of god or the supernatural were just branches from the same unknown thing, which still isn't exactly a skeptics or atheists view I know so I'm not holding it up here for approval, but it made sense to me for a long time. They believe that no religion has it all right, and treated each religion as people trying to find their understanding. There was no believe in hell or sometimes any afterlife at all.

And then after that I identified as a theist for quite a while till about 4 weeks ago when I started reading reports about miracles I couldn't explain

Maybe I need to go back to the roots and find some good scholarly information on the formation of Judaism and Christianity in the first place, how it evolved in the ancient world ?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Full of shit, you mean.

[SGOS]

I was a pantheist who believed that all experienced of god or the supernatural were just branches from the same unknown thing, which still isn't exactly a skeptics or atheists view I know so I'm not holding it up here for approval, but it made sense to me for a long time.

I went through that too.  I didn't call my self a pantheist.  I just came to the conclusion that Christianity and all of its forms was just impossible, so I entertained the idea that there could be an unknowable god, one beyond the reach of human understanding that existed for some reason or another (unknowable of course), but probably did not interact in human affairs.  But in the end, there is absolutely no more evidence to support such an entity than there is of the strictest interpretation of the Christian god.  And with that realization, I had to admit that no religion I knew of could be supported by credible evidence either.  I also took a course in comparative religion in college.  All had much in common but not in every way, but what they all did have in common was that none were rational enough to deserve my attention.

[Unbeliever]

U had that for years actually. I was a pantheist who believed that all experienced of god or the supernatural were just branches from the same unknown thing, which still isn't exactly a skeptics or atheists view I know so I'm not holding it up here for approval, but it made sense to me for a long time. They believe that no religion has it all right, and treated each religion as people trying to find their understanding. There was no believe in hell or sometimes any afterlife at all.

And then after that I identified as a theist for quite a while till about 4 weeks ago when I started reading reports about miracles I couldn't explain

Maybe I need to go back to the roots and find some good scholarly information on the formation of Judaism and Christianity in the first place, how it evolved in the ancient world ?

That's what I'd recommend, find out about the history of the RCC. Christianity started out as a whole variety of different versions of the religion, but someone decided that there should be, like Highlander, only one.

[Unbeliever]

Here's a list of things concerning Christian History that I've compiled.

[SGOS]

There seems to me to be only one legitimate question one needs to answer:  "Is there evidence to support a god?"  If the answer is no, then all the man make constructs of religions, along with man made constructs of punishments for not believing in any of them are a meaningless waste of our short time on Earth.

Of course, good Christians see evidence of God in a rainbow.  A rational person would just enjoy the rainbow, without assuming it directs us to the supernatural.

[Unbeliever]

If Hell was an actual, real thing, why would God have waited thousands of years before telling anyone about it? How many were condemned to Hell without even knowing of it during their lives?

[SGOS]

Sirimoon, it seems odd that you would recognize the irrationality of Catholicism, but get befuddled by Lourdes. the myth of Lourdes suffers from the same flaws of the entirety of Christianity.  Why not focus on the shroud of Turin?

[Syrimoon]

Sirimoon, it seems odd that you would recognize the irrationality of Catholicism, but get befuddled by Lourdes. the myth of Lourdes suffers from the same flaws of the entirety of Christianity.  Why not focus on the shroud of Turin?

Because it's been soundly debunked as a forgery in a way i can understand but there's still parts of Lourdes I don't understand. I know that just because I don't understand it doesn't make it real but that's where I'm at

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yeah, that's a stupid position to hold, isn't it.

[Baruch]

Because it's been soundly debunked as a forgery in a way i can understand but there's still parts of Lourdes I don't understand. I know that just because I don't understand it doesn't make it real but that's where I'm at

If you don't understand psychosomatic illness, then you can't understand anything "legitimate" from Lourdes.  I would hope one doesn't need an MD or Psych degree to understand psychosomatic illness.  Depends on what you mean by understanding.

Pantheism?  I can partially justify that.  Any POV can be partially justified, even atheism.

The human mind is an instrument like a Swiss Army knife.  You have lots of tools you can use.  Monism, Dualism, Pluralism (aka monotheism, millennialism, polytheism).  Numbers were made for man, man wasn't made for numbers.  So "zero" corresponds to atheism ;-)  It took awhile for humans to realize that zero, and atheism were even possible.

So the idea that atheism (zero) or theism (one thru X) is the only legitimate number, is a bit maniacal.  And egotistical.  I have the one true number, all who agree with me are my disciples, anyone who disagrees are heretics (see Pythagoras).  Supposedly Hippias, a later disciple of Pythagoras, discovered that the square root of two can never be the ratio between two integers.  That is why those numbers are called "irrational".  And the other followers of Pythagoras murdered him, to shut him up.  So how rational are these arguments about how many gods there are?  Pythagorean ... not elementary my dear Watson.

[Baruch]

That makes sense. I also remember reading that their doctors were saying thingns like "it is medical fact that-" but thread 150 years ago.

Their most recent miracle was a nun paralyzed for 40 years regained movement as soon as she was in the water. Same thing ?

Yes.  There isn't a lot of medical research one once-happened medical events.  By definition.  Medicine can only be scientific on controlled, repeatable events.  Like a flu infection.

[Baruch]

I'm trying.

I suppose those who were cured at Lourdes could have spots eously been cured anywhere. With millions of visitors each year, coincidences plus timing are bound to happen

But isn't that a reason to be happy, for someone's improvement, even if a doctor didn't get paid for it.

[Baruch]

I feel like I have to believe because somehow in my brain one answer (god and miracles) adds up more logically than many (lies and coincidences and mistakes). I'm sure there's a logical fallacy there somewhere, I just...i dunno. I have ptsd, I haven't eaten in 36 hours. Nothing makes sense

Buddhism is simpler.  One sage said, it can be reduced to .... when hungry eat, when tired sleep.