Is Lourdes impossible to refute ?

[SGOS]

How do we explain things like a man regaining his sight or a woman's paralysis stopping?

Well, there's medical science.  There's the psychosomatic explanation.  And there's the explanation that none of it actually happened.  You could pick any one of those.  Or you could wait for someone to offer proof that it really did happen.  Or you could quit worrying about it, and get on with your life.

[Baruch]

And how would Bernadette have known to call the image the immaculate conception, a new name ? Did she hear it in passing at church and memorize it?

Imagination.  We all have it.  Not saying the new name is bad.  Of course Virgin Mary was originally Isis and Artemis of Ephesus.  So she is used to being poly-valent.  Typical woman.

[Baruch]

Was there ever any other reason to run a tourist trap like this?

Originally pilgrims would have walked to Santiago Compostella for St James' blessing.  But France didn't want Spain to get all the money.  Lourdes is on the path to Santiago Compostella.

[Baruch]

I mean I follow you but I feel like these are way too solid and substantial problems to be all in their heads?

Psychosomatic isn't psycho.  It is body plus mind.  If a non-mental problem was cured, then it wasn't Lourdes.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I was never in religion to not feel alone. I waa never happy as a theist. It was nonstop loneliness and terror and rigidity. I was a theist because I thought there was a god and that terrified me, and that's why I'm freaking out about a huge group of apparent miracles that I haven't seen anyone provide a solid refutation for

And you never will see a solid refutation that you will accept.

[Baruch]

I can admit I'm a little frustrated and overwhelmed by how we don't have straight answers readily available to each and every case, especially the oldest ones since they seem the most wild

Doctors knew very little, even in the 20th century.  Before 1950 they new almost nothing.  Old cures can't be verified since the patient has since died.

[Baruch]

I was never in religion to not feel alone. I waa never happy as a theist. It was nonstop loneliness and terror and rigidity. I was a theist because I thought there was a god and that terrified me, and that's why I'm freaking out about a huge group of apparent miracles that I haven't seen anyone provide a solid refutation for

Bad theology.  If you are a demon, and go to Hell, you will love it there, it is your natural home.

Hell is here and now, for those into it.

[Syrimoon]

Been there.  I was brain beaten as a child by a Baptist grandmother.  Those Baptists know a thing or two about indoctrinating the young and the weak.  You don't recover from that kind of brainwashing with a snap of the fingers, especially if you've been told you will rot in Hell if you don't buy the bullshit.  It took me 30 years to rid myself of that 10 years of brainwashing.  No, I redid the math.  It took me 40 years.

So you really can, in full honestly , look at Lourdes and see no reason to believe ? It's possible that she hears the name immaculate heart before, it's possible her stories got carried away, it's possible the miracles are just a lump ofnlies, exaggerations , hysteria and coincidence ? And if so how do I do that man

[Baruch]

O spent 25, so I understand. I don't know. Something on me keeps saying, you're in denial, you know the church is true bow, you're just refusing to go back...but couldn't that just be my anxiety and trauma telling me the absolute worst case scenario is gonna happen ?

Like I said, you need psychology help, not theology help.  Hope your family dynamics don't make your condition worse, but it probably does (brother).

[Baruch]

I have read that, indeed. I've read all i can.

It comes back to this am one really-

How do we explain things like a man regaining his sight or a woman's paralysis stopping?

We're they already feeling signs of healing and used the water for a minute of fame? But the blind man was a skeptic, he didn't believe, he claimed he was blond before and bot after, and his doctor examined him after

Shit like that

Partial blindness and partial paralysis are known psychosomatic conditions.  Catharsis, spontaneous or induced, terminates the underlying hysteria.

Yeah, I think that some of the psychosomatic cures at Lourdes are real.  By natural cause.  Of course the Catholic belief of the patient going there ... is essential for inducing the catharsis (the numinous feeling).  This happens at Pentecostal tent healings all the time, not just in France, not just with Catholics.

[Syrimoon]

Partial blindness and partial paralysis are known psychosomatic conditions.  Catharsis, spontaneous or induced, terminates the underlying hysteria.

Yeah, I think that some of the psychosomatic cures at Lourdes are real.  By natural cause.  Of course the Catholic belief of the patient going there ... is essential for inducing the catharsis (the numinous feeling).  This happens at Pentecostal tent healings all the time, not just in France, not just with Catholics.

That makes sense. I also remember reading that their doctors were saying thingns like "it is medical fact that-" but thread 150 years ago.

Their most recent miracle was a nun paralyzed for 40 years regained movement as soon as she was in the water. Same thing ?

[Syrimoon]

Well, there's medical science.  There's the psychosomatic explanation.  And there's the explanation that none of it actually happened.  You could pick any one of those.  Or you could wait for someone to offer proof that it really did happen.  Or you could quit worrying about it, and get on with your life.

I'm trying.

I suppose those who were cured at Lourdes could have spots eously been cured anywhere. With millions of visitors each year, coincidences plus timing are bound to happen

[Syrimoon]

Imagination.  We all have it.  Not saying the new name is bad.  Of course Virgin Mary was originally Isis and Artemis of Ephesus.  So she is used to being poly-valent.  Typical woman.

No, she didn't make it up. It was canonized in Rome 4 years prior and her priest says there's no way she could know it, and that she had to keep saying this strange name Mary gave her all the way home to not forget it

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'm trying.

I suppose those who were cured at Lourdes could have spots eously been cured anywhere. With millions of visitors each year, coincidences plus timing are bound to happen

And you default to magic as another option for their cure. Awesome.

[Mike Cl]

I have read that, indeed. I've read all i can.

It comes back to this am one really-

How do we explain things like a man regaining his sight or a woman's paralysis stopping?

We're they already feeling signs of healing and used the water for a minute of fame? But the blind man was a skeptic, he didn't believe, he claimed he was blond before and bot after, and his doctor examined him after

Shit like that

Why do you believe those stories?  Could it be possible there are a few lies involved ?  And why would a god trying to reach all of his creation be so obscure with his miracles?  Simply, it does not add up--clearly there are a bunch of tall tales going on here--much like Paul Bunyan and his blue ox.