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Four liberal defenses of Islam debunked

Started by GSOgymrat, December 10, 2018, 06:15:54 PM

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Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 12, 2018, 01:25:20 PM
Christianity, when it began, was also a political doctrine, because in those days religion and politics were inseparable. It's getting to be that way again, unfortunately.

Separation only occurred in the US, after it partially happened in GB.  This is unique, not normal at all.  As per my "good old times post" regarding pre-modern society ... the way things have mostly been done, is very ... conformist, with lots of violence to anyone not conforming.  And many of the standards of conformance (like skin color) are themselves non-sense.

Ok, so there was a truce in GB regarding the wars of religion.  Ireland, Scotland and Britain (England/Wales) got burned out on their three-way melee.  Ireland being Catholic, Scotland being Presbyterian, and Britain being Anglican.  The American colonies were all different too, Maryland being the only Catholic colony among the English speaking colonies.  Lots of people who didn't fit into the three-way truce (Quakers) fled to the New World also.  Colonies had Established religion.  Puritans in New England executed Quakers for heresy.  The need for the US to unify, from 1775 forward, and even 1783 forward, created the need to disestablish religion in all the former colonies.  Thomas Jefferson, who was rather secular, provided intellectual backing.

So where is this tolerance coming from?  Originally from the US, and from nowhere else.  Your Golden-Age of tolerance is BS outside of the US.  Politics was more important to us than creed.  Churches N and S split over the Civil War, because of political differences, not because of theological ones.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 12, 2018, 02:43:29 PM
Yes--that!

Note, my primary ideological bent, is not opposition to agnosticism or atheism ... but to liberalism.  As it is, liberalism was hijacked by the French Revolution, and has devolved into psychosis ever since.  The malign influence of France, particularly thru Thomas Jefferson, has gradually poisoned us.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

For this Liberal, there is and never was, a good religion.  All are false.  None help mankind in the long run and few in the short run.  They are all fictions that make one blind to what really is.  Islam is one of the worst--it joins Christianity in that respect.  But none---none--are good or productive; unless you are the leader or one of them, then one can get wealth, unlimited sex and personal power.  That's the real name of the game!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Minimalist

And for this Liberal there is and never was a good conservative.  The world changes constantly at an ever accelerating pace since the Industrial Revolution and they simply cannot deal with it.  If it were up to them we'd still be living in caves and eating lichen off of rocks.  I suspect the truth is that they cannot adapt!
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Hydra009

#19
Quote from: GSOgymrat on December 10, 2018, 06:15:54 PM
I know this video is largely preaching to the choir but I think Drew makes some good points. The four defenses of Islam he addresses are:

1. Criticizing Islam is hateful or racist.

2. All the bad parts of Islam are not true Islam.

3. Bad things exist in every religion so singling out Islam is unfair.

4. You're criticizing women's rights in Islam but not asking Muslim women how they feel.
All of these rebuttals are fair, and yet I doubt few - if any - liberals here actually hold any of those positions.

My "defense" is simply that Americans shouldn't freak out when they see someone wearing a turban nor fly into a rage upon learning that a mosque is planned to be constructed in NYC.  Islam is of course a horribly backwards religion and fertile ground for discrimination, violence, and a type of authoritarian ideology that is fundamentally incompatible with Western-style democracy.

I suspect that there are ideological motivations driving the rampant confusion of these two stances.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Mike Cl on December 13, 2018, 10:03:47 AMBut none---none--are good or productive; unless you are the leader or one of them, then one can get wealth, unlimited sex and personal power.  That's the real name of the game!

Jeez, where do I sign up!?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

I think it's funny when conservatives constantly tell liberals what liberals believe.

Empathy and tolerance of difference is considered bad by the right-wing, but money, in any form, is the be-all and end all of existence.

See, we liberals can play that game, too!
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mike Cl

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 13, 2018, 01:38:44 PM
Jeez, where do I sign up!?
Jones anyone?  Waco is supposed to be a good place to start.  Grow your local church into a mega church--have you pick of your flock--you could then flock them any way you'd like. :)
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Hydra009

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 13, 2018, 01:42:11 PM
I think it's funny when conservatives constantly tell liberals what liberals believe.
There was a thread like that, something along the lines of "why do liberals love Islam?" only to be informed through the comments that they do not in fact love Islam.  Part of me wants to believe that this was taken to heart and that opinion got reassessed.  Part of me suspects otherwise.

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

GSOgymrat

Quote from: Hydra009 on December 13, 2018, 03:10:19 PM
There was a thread like that, something along the lines of "why do liberals love Islam?" only to be informed through the comments that they do not in fact love Islam.  Part of me wants to believe that this was taken to heart and that opinion got reassessed.  Part of me suspects otherwise.

I think one reason liberals are accused of loving Islam is because in the US where Muslims are a very small minority liberals don't like it when people are harassed for being different. I have a kind of "I don't like what you're saying but I'll defend your right to say it" attitude towards Islam, which may be seen by conservatives as "loving" Islam. Some conservatives believe freedom of religion is freedom to choose one of the many versions of Christianity. "You're free to have any flavor you like as long as it's chocolate-- dark chocolate, milk chocolate, mint chocolate... Your choice!"

Hydra009

And that worries me because we're a secular state, not a Christian one.  If our objection to Islamism is merely that it's the wrong religion, we have already lost.

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on December 12, 2018, 11:23:47 AM
I’ve never defended Islam, just the suckers raised in it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is a clear difference between criticizing islam and criticizing muslims. As you well know, you can defend muslims and have compassion towards them, while being (rightfully) critical of islam. Many extreme liberals and many muslims do not see this separation.

Minimalist

QuoteMy "defense" is simply that Americans shouldn't freak out when they see someone wearing a turban nor fly into a rage upon learning that a mosque is planned to be constructed in NYC.

And yet it isn't the Liberals who are the problem.

https://www.ajc.com/news/national/nearly-americans-would-deny-muslim-american-citizens-the-right-vote-new-report-finds/3JaLmKciEigUGNSjG27QWN/

QuoteStereotyping is strongly related to cultural conservatism and views were even more polarized among those favorable to President Donald Trump, the report found. For example, Democrats believe that a majority of Muslims (67 percent) wanted to fit in, yet Republicans believed only 36 percent did. And when comparing Muslims and Christians, Democrats evaluated Muslims slightly more favorably than Christians (+15 vs +11), whereas Republicans evaluated them much less favorably (-4 vs +24).
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Baruch

Quote from: Hydra009 on December 13, 2018, 03:10:19 PM
There was a thread like that, something along the lines of "why do liberals love Islam?" only to be informed through the comments that they do not in fact love Islam.  Part of me wants to believe that this was taken to heart and that opinion got reassessed.  Part of me suspects otherwise.

Yes, all liberals are closet conservatives ;-)  Like Clinton, like Obama.

I don't care what liberals believe or don't.  I want their self destructive nature to get its just rewards, but on some isolated Devil's Advocate Island, far from me.  Liberals have taught me to hate human rights.  The end does justify the means.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.