$153,000 For a Rattlesnake Bite

[SGOS]

Socialised medicine is forcing practitioners to work for a fee which they don't necessarily want to work for. They get no choice, because if they attempt to charge what they want for their services they are compelled by violence by the state to do otherwise. That's why it's immoral.

Few people are paid what they think they're worth.  That doesn't mean they are entitled to more, and it's not immoral to refuse to pay them more.  If they don't like it, they have a choice to go do something else.

[Baruch]

Few people are paid what they think they're worth.  That doesn't mean they are entitled to more, and it's not immoral to refuse to pay them more.  If they don't like it, they have a choice to go do something else.

And they have a choice to leave you bleeding out on the street.

If the AMA was worth a damn, then way back when, they would have denied treatment to anyone with insurance.  Let the insurance company paper pusher treat you.

[Gilgamesh]

Few people are paid what they think they're worth.  That doesn't mean they are entitled to more, and it's not immoral to refuse to pay them more.  If they don't like it, they have a choice to go do something else.

Yeah?

So if you work at a bakery, and then quit to go open your own bakery, the former bakery can come with armed force to tell you to either work for them, shut-down your bakery, or continue to operate your bakery and go to jail?

Not the same bud.

Under socialised medicine, the government is telling practitioners that they are not allowed to practice medicine unless its for them. Not the same as the current model we have for every other industry like your fallacious comparison attempts to posit lolll.

[Shiranu]

There is a difference between luxury goods and necessities. In civilized nations, the people have decided medical care is a right and not a privilege.

[Gilgamesh]

There is a difference between luxury goods and necessities. In civilized nations, the people have decided medical care is a right and not a privilege.

In most, yeah. I would disagree that socialised medicine is a quality that has any bearing on the civility of a nation, if that's what you're implying. It just depends how strongly that nation values individual liberty. If they value it to the detriment of the collective, then socialised medicine isn't gonna' happen.

I myself value personal liberty a fucking lot. I won't sacrifice it in favor of much, but for socialised medicine I reluctantly will. Waiting periods go up, quality goes down, (though not nearly as much as some conservatards will tell you) but everyone gets it and people don't go into debt for years just for visiting the ER to find out nothing is wrong with them.

Worth it.

[Shiranu]

I would disagree that socialised medicine is a quality that has any bearing on the civility of a nation, if that's what you're implying.

I am implying that, amongst other things, because it is simply statistically true.

- Amongst developed country, we have a significantly higher rate of people dying to treatable illness when compared to medically socialized countries.
- Disease is significantly more a burden on a person's quality of life, as well as their potential life span, in the United States than it is in civilized societies.
- Our admission rate for preventable diseases is significantly higher than civilized countries, indicating that people don't want to get help before they have no other option.
- We have the highest rate of medical, medication, and lab errors compared to other countries (though only by a few percentage points on a few, so this one isn't quite as bad).
- We have a significantly higher rate of post-op suture ruptures than other countries.
- On cancer mortality, we are... pretty good, actually. So +1 to the United States there.
- However, when it comes to respiratory disease we have a very high mortality rate compared to other countries (again, part of the preventible disease problem).
- Compared to all civilized countries other than Canada, we have a significantly longer wait time to see a doctor on average.
- Again, compared to all except Canada, Americans check into the ER far more than any other country for symptoms that should be treated by a regular doctor.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-use-emergency-department-place-regular-doctor-visits-common-u-s-comparable-countries

Additionally, I would just like to add that Americans pay money towards health care than people in civilized country do on average, and often times by a large margin. The system is both more expensive and less effective than socialized medicine.

It just depends how strongly that nation values individual liberty.

Individual liberty is not being a heartbeat away from having the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years of your life heavily indebted. That is not liberty. Nor is "liberty" running a borderline criminal enterprise that exploits the health of others to line your wallet. That isn't liberty.

[Gilgamesh]

Individual liberty is not being a heartbeat away from having the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years of your life heavily indebted. That is not liberty. Nor is "liberty" running a borderline criminal enterprise that exploits the health of others to line your wallet. That isn't liberty.

Liberty isn't just a word you use to describe good things. All the things you described can be perfectly in-line with liberty.

[SGOS]

Under socialised medicine, the government is telling practitioners that they are not allowed to practice medicine unless its for them.

You are allowed to practice medicine if you are licensed to practice and fulfill certain obligations.  We don't know what those obligations might be, anymore than we know there will be government death squads.  Go ahead and believe socialized medicine is immoral if that pleases you.  Lots of people believe all sorts of strange things, and the world will still manage.

[SGOS]

And they have a choice to leave you bleeding out on the street.

Yes, they could do that.  Everyone has a choice.  Although making a bad choice may backfire.

[Shiranu]

Liberty isn't just a word you use to describe good things. All the things you described can be perfectly in-line with liberty.

Being heavily indebted is not possessing liberty. Particularly not when it's indebted over something civilized societies deem to be a basic human right. There is no freedom in being tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt; you lose the freedom to live where you want, to purchase what you want, to a chance to move up in the world, to maintain a family, etc. ...

[Baruch]

You are allowed to practice medicine if you are licensed to practice and fulfill certain obligations.  We don't know what those obligations might be, anymore than we know there will be government death squads.  Go ahead and believe socialized medicine is immoral if that pleases you.  Lots of people believe all sorts of strange things, and the world will still manage.

Human beings are immoral, doctors or not, patients or not.  All else is virtue signaling.

People practice medicine without a license all the time ... over the counter, with alcohol, with illegal drugs.  Mostly self-medicating practices.

Doctors are not expected to fulfill any obligations in fact, they only exist on paper.  AMA only protects itself, it is a union.  Or are you thinking of Dr Joel Fleischman?  He had an obligation to public service, for a few years, in Alaska .. in fiction.

[Baruch]

Yes, they could do that.  Everyone has a choice.  Although making a bad choice may backfire.

Not in socialism ... in crony capitalism, you can loose a million bucks in the stock market speculations, and the Feds will back your casino loses.  In medical socialism, you can drink alcohol like a fish, and the taxpayer gets to pay for it.

[Baruch]

Yeah?

So if you work at a bakery, and then quit to go open your own bakery, the former bakery can come with armed force to tell you to either work for them, shut-down your bakery, or continue to operate your bakery and go to jail?

Not the same bud.

Under socialised medicine, the government is telling practitioners that they are not allowed to practice medicine unless its for them. Not the same as the current model we have for every other industry like your fallacious comparison attempts to posit lolll.

I think enslaving everyone is a good idea.  Liberals should get extra whippings, to remind them.

[Baruch]

There is a difference between luxury goods and necessities. In civilized nations, the people have decided medical care is a right and not a privilege.

I have decided as a demigod ... that socialists are annoying.  Bow down and worship me ... I am one of the People!

But really, the People aren't the government, they aren't even the owners.  Peasants aren't owners.  Owners are the government.

[Baruch]

Being heavily indebted is not possessing liberty. Particularly not when it's indebted over something civilized societies deem to be a basic human right. There is no freedom in being tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt; you lose the freedom to live where you want, to purchase what you want, to a chance to move up in the world, to maintain a family, etc. ...

Too late, Bush Jr /Obama obligated you to $14 trillion in just 2008/2009 ... better get to work paying off your debt.  Debt slaves have no rights.  You are already in chains, but you can't see them.