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The Object and The Hazard

Started by Absurd Atheist, April 22, 2017, 04:41:17 PM

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Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on May 18, 2017, 03:59:33 AM
Right, but I didn't know how to get past your irrational hatreds.
That's the problem.  Those 'irrational fears' are not mine but yours. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 18, 2017, 09:00:02 AM

But how can nature be both everything and nothing, as per your words?

Is that not illogic?

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Are we both reading English??  Could you point out 'my words' that says that?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2017, 09:20:35 AM
Are we both reading English??  Could you point out 'my words' that says that?
I recall you recently saying that everything is nature.

I recall you more recently saying that nature is not anything.



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Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2017, 09:18:46 AM
That's the problem.  Those 'irrational fears' are not mine but yours.

Then David Duke is a good candidate for you to vote for? ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 18, 2017, 10:37:35 AM
I recall you recently saying that everything is nature.

I recall you more recently saying that nature is not anything.



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I think he means the first ... but that nature doesn't exist or not exist, it is what is.  Exist/not-exist is a dichotomy he considers irrelevant.  So for you, for something to be anything, does existence matter?  I think this question is mere semantics, not substance.  I think he is a "hard empiricist" ... the fact that a fiction exists, is non-existence to him, because it is self contradictory?  My hand exists, but my ideas about my hand (that it proves G-d) don't exist.  A Medieval turn in theology, discarded, was extreme nominalism, that names are "flatus vocis" ... mere flatulence ... compared to the things they signify.  So fiction, which is all words, is a whole lot of flatulence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominalism
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on May 18, 2017, 01:13:27 PM
Then David Duke is a good candidate for you to vote for? ;-)
What do you think.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 18, 2017, 10:37:35 AM
I recall you recently saying that everything is nature.

I recall you more recently saying that nature is not anything.



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Nature is what is.  What you see is what you get.  The significance of anything--including you--is determined by you and you alone.  Nature is the set of laws (or processes if you prefer) that creates this universe and all that is in it.  I don't recall saying nature is not anything.  Nature is everything--all that is is natural.  Therefore, nothing exists that is unnatural or supernatural.  If it exists, it is natural and of nature.  Nature is not a being, it is not a creature, it does not live; it is a set of processes.  So, Pops, when I tell you god is a fiction, I simply mean that since god does not exist, god cannot be.  Nothing can transcend nature.   
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on May 18, 2017, 01:19:45 PM
I think he means the first ... but that nature doesn't exist or not exist, it is what is.  Exist/not-exist is a dichotomy he considers irrelevant.  So for you, for something to be anything, does existence matter?  I think this question is mere semantics, not substance.  I think he is a "hard empiricist" ... the fact that a fiction exists, is non-existence to him, because it is self contradictory?  My hand exists, but my ideas about my hand (that it proves G-d) don't exist.  A Medieval turn in theology, discarded, was extreme nominalism, that names are "flatus vocis" ... mere flatulence ... compared to the things they signify.  So fiction, which is all words, is a whole lot of flatulence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominalism
So, Baruch, can I come to you to translate me to the rest of the world?  "I think he means the first.....", is a disingenuous (at best) statement from you.  You know damn well what I mean and what I think about god and the universe.  We have been talking about it for a couple of decades now.   You are becoming rather sloppy with your sentences lately--are you okay--are you ill or is somebody near to you ill?  You don't seem to be able to concentrate as well now as in the past.  For example, you say, "My hand exists, but my ideas about my hand (that it proves G-d) don't exist. " , is rather awkward, especially for you.  What does that mean?  Your had exists but your ideas about your had proves god exists?  Or that your ideas don't exist?  ??  Your hand exists because it exists --mainly evolution of humans is the reason.  Your thoughts about it are yours.  If your hand proves to you that god exists, then so be it for you.  The significance of your hand is supplied by you and you alone.  Nature does not care one way or the other if you have a hand or what that hand means to you. 

You also say, "So fiction, which is all words, is a whole lot of flatulence.".  Really?  That's what I think, but somehow I don't think you do.  God is a fiction and all the words and works about god really boils down to '..a whole lot of flatulence,' and of the smelliest sort!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2017, 01:28:35 PM
What do you think.

You will never enter the SJW inner sanctum ... first they will embrace Muslims, but soon, KKK members too.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2017, 01:34:57 PM
Nature is what is.  What you see is what you get.  The significance of anything--including you--is determined by you and you alone.  Nature is the set of laws (or processes if you prefer) that creates this universe and all that is in it.  I don't recall saying nature is not anything.  Nature is everything--all that is is natural.  Therefore, nothing exists that is unnatural or supernatural.  If it exists, it is natural and of nature.  Nature is not a being, it is not a creature, it does not live; it is a set of processes.  So, Pops, when I tell you god is a fiction, I simply mean that since god does not exist, god cannot be.  Nothing can transcend nature.
That's a hell of a leap of faith.



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Mike Cl

Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 18, 2017, 07:03:22 PM
That's a hell of a leap of faith.



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There is not a drop of faith involved.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2017, 08:27:04 PM
There is not a drop of faith involved.
You base GOD not existing on the fact that YOU cannot observe IT in nature.

Doing so is basically to say that existence as a whole is only comprised of what you can wrap your head around...your right; that doesn't take faith.

You now say nature is the laws that bind, but what is causal to the laws? Nature?

I'm done; you are going in illogical circles of repeat thought and thinking it to be some superior critical conclusion of all thought when it is based on partiality.


Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2017, 08:27:04 PM
There is not a drop of faith involved.


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Baruch

#57
Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2017, 08:27:04 PM
There is not a drop of faith involved.

Things are what they are, because we are what we are.

All materialists are alchemists, following Ororboros the dragon who eats his own tail, forming the circle of life.  Or auto-fellatio ;-)  Self-reference usually ends in paradox, for the sacred and the profane.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: popsthebuilder on May 18, 2017, 08:58:14 PM
You base GOD not existing on the fact that YOU cannot observe IT in nature.

Doing so is basically to say that existence as a whole is only comprised of what you can wrap your head around...your right; that doesn't take faith.

You now say nature is the laws that bind, but what is causal to the laws? Nature?

I'm done; you are going in illogical circles of repeat thought and thinking it to be some superior critical conclusion of all thought when it is based on partiality.



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You were done before you started.  Your stupidly held beliefs are just that--beliefs.  The only foundations that exist for them are in your own head and nowhere else.  You want to live a fiction--go ahead and do so, I don't give a shit.  You are simply irreparably ignorant. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 18, 2017, 09:55:44 PM
You were done before you started.  Your stupidly held beliefs are just that--beliefs.  The only foundations that exist for them are in your own head and nowhere else.  You want to live a fiction--go ahead and do so, I don't give a shit.  You are simply irreparably ignorant.
Damn.....offended much?

I thought I may have been a little too abrasive.

Thanks for saying how you really feel though.....dick

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