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Abiogenesis is impossible

Started by challengeatheism, January 03, 2017, 08:12:02 PM

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Mermaid

Meh. Facts don't matter to you, apparently. Sucks to be you.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

trdsf

Mods?  I call copyapasta troll.  He just repeats the wall of text he stole from somewhere else rather than engage.  And is ignoring direct questions to keep up with that which he has been told is factually inaccurate.  Can't even hide behind incomplete knowledge anymore, now he's a deliberate liar.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

challengeatheism

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on January 08, 2017, 08:06:44 PM
Nothing is irreducibly complex. The less complex version just has a different function/behavior.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

what function has a software without the hardware ? what good does a hardware without the software ? please explain

challengeatheism

Quote from: trdsf on January 08, 2017, 10:44:40 PM
Mods?  I call copyapasta troll.  He just repeats the wall of text he stole from somewhere else rather than engage.  And is ignoring direct questions to keep up with that which he has been told is factually inaccurate.  Can't even hide behind incomplete knowledge anymore, now he's a deliberate liar.

can't refute my claims. Calls me a troll.

So you just reveal you are not honest, and give not a chance new evidence presented to you to acknowledge.

Noted.

Btw. the study of hemoglobin, and that the pathway to synthesize it, IS MINE.

Baruch

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on January 08, 2017, 08:06:44 PM
Nothing is irreducibly complex. The less complex version just has a different function/behavior.


Equal opportunity butt-stabber.

Complex to humans, but not to ubermenschen.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hydra009

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 09, 2017, 06:03:25 AM
can't refute my claims. Calls me a troll.
A troll is the best of two things you could be.  If anything, he just gave you a complement.

QuoteBtw. the study of hemoglobin, and that the pathway to synthesize it, IS MINE.

trdsf

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 09, 2017, 06:03:25 AM
can't refute my claims. Calls me a troll.

So you just reveal you are not honest, and give not a chance new evidence presented to you to acknowledge.

Noted.

Btw. the study of hemoglobin, and that the pathway to synthesize it, IS MINE.

I did refute it, troll, and you just went out and copied irrelevant text and tried to change the subject -- you've already demonstrated an inability to handle rational thought, but you could at least have a whack at original.

It has been explained to you that the type of abiogenesis you're arguing against is not the actual theory, but your own made up strawman.  And you stick by your strawman, which means you are deliberately lying now.

And let's see your patent on hemoglobin synthesis.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 09, 2017, 06:01:54 AM
what function has a software without the hardware ? what good does a hardware without the software ? please explain
The universe has plenty of examples of "hardware without software." You get Vitamin D from one such example every day, assuming you go outside.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

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Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
ahahahahahahaha.. NO KIDDING ??!!!

The heme biosynthesis pathway is irreducible complex.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/t1322-the-amazing-hemoglobin-molecule#1859

Heme biosynthesis is a complex pathway with 8 highly specific steps, of which 6 steps are used by specific enzymes uniquely in this pathway.
The pathway must go all the way through, otherwise heme is not synthesized.
Therefore, the heme biosynthesis pathway is irreducible complex.
Irreducible complexity ≠ impossible to evolve. You've been told this before.

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
Questions:
What good would there be, if the pathway would go only up to the 7th step ? none
Wrong. The seventh step would still produce some chemical product. Just because YOU can't think of a use for this product does not mean it didn't have one.

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
What good would there be, if the pathway would go all the way through the 8th step ? Heme would be produced , BUT :
What good for survival would there be for Heme by its own, if not fully embedded in the globin proteins? none.
The heme group is actually a cofactor to a whole suite of proteins, including cytochrome c oxidase, which is ancient. So, yeah, heme is of use outside the globulins.

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
What good would there be for red bloodcells without hemoglobin, transporting oxygen to the cells in the body ? none,
Don't be stupid. Either blood cells evolved after hemoglobin, or there was a utility for them prior. For instance, they would provide bulk in case that the blood needed to clot.

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
I conclude therefore that the heme biosynthesis pathway is irreducible complex, and could not have evolved upon mutation and natural selection.
Well, good thing that you're not the authority on evolutionary history, isn't it? Also, being that hemoglobin and the like evolved AFTER the start of life, pointing out that hemoglobin couldn't have been poofed into existence is rather moot.


Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
I mentioned that some enzymes have to be imported into the mitochondrion. These enzymes contain special protein sequences called targeting signals that direct them to the right place. So the next question: is globin targeted to the mitochondrion? No - it is synthesised on ribosomes, attached to the Golgi apparatus in the cytoplasm and it stays there. Some of the haem made in the mitochondrion is used by mitochondrial proteins called cytochromes, but the rest is exported back outside where it can attach to the globin protein. Have a look at these Wikipedia pages: heme and porphyrin, for some more details. Porphyrins, by the way, are intermediates in haem synthesis that also have the tetrapyrrole structure.
Don't you realize that you have shot yourself in the foot by putting this forth? It describes a utility for the heme group that is not attached to the globulins. Indeed, it seems that spare heme groups were appropriated for globulin synthesis.

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
Researchers have done experiments in which they synthesised globin protein chains to see at what point the haem attached. It can attach when about 80-90 amino acids have emerged from the ribosome - in other words, it attaches to the "nascent chain" as the protein is being synthesised. One of the mysteries that we don't fully understand is how the haemoglobin assembles itself properly - so as it has 2 alpha chains and 2 beta chains each with a haemoglobin attached.

Question : for what reason would evolution try to assemble the heme to the globin ? what survival advantage would there be provided by a globin without the heme ? and what advantage of the heme without the globin ?
You've already answered the last question yourself. Or rather, you copypasted it into your response without realizing that it does, indeed, state a purpose for the heme group prior to the development of the globulins.

As to the rest of it, what use are globulins without heme groups? Ask pumpkins, or indeed plants like peas and lentils. Vicilin has no heme groups, but it does have a use â€" being a storage protein. This makes sense, given their high molecular weight. Given that their function here is to be packaged amino acids, their actual sequence are allowed to be highly variable. It would be surprising that some wouldn't develop cites that would bind to heme groups just by accident.

The thing is, the heme group bonds to oxygen wether or not it's in a protein. The protein provides a larger handle for those groups to bind to and pack away into neat bundles, and pin them down in the cytoplasm, and provide a bit of control and sense for their function. Each of these aspects could evolve on their own in any order.

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 07:28:01 PM
How did gene duplication, followed by random mutations and natural selection figure out to produze  the  PBG deaminase enzyme,, used as far as science knows, exclusively in this path way, so no co-option possible ? -  that would produce this complex reaction, ( which is just the third in the whole pathway of total 8 steps )  consisting in 4 highly coordenated , ordered, sequenced and complex steps, forming a geometrically correct tetrapyrrole, and repeat the first two steps in total 4 times ? How did evolution be capable to producte  the right genetic code and informational sequence ?  How did evolution figure out to program  the release of the hydroxymethylbilane enzyme at the right time, after the product, the linear hydroxymethylbilane was catalized, and  while releasing four ammonia molecules ?
You ask these questions because you don't want to understand, and you have demonstrated again and again through this thread. You characterize the four executions of this reaction as somehow "highly coordinated" and "ordered" and having "complex steps". No. It's just a polymerization step repeated four times, and is hardly chemical voodoo. And, because this growing tail takes up actual volume, when it grows long enough it simply crowds out further subunits from polymerizing to the tail until hydroxymethylbilane is cleaved off, and the enzyme begins again.

You're making the action of the PBG deaminase enzyme sound a lot more mysterious and complicated than it actually is.
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PickelledEggs

You know a new user is doing a bad job if they're 24 posts in and only have 1 like from Baruch

PickelledEggs

Quote from: Hijiri Byakuren on January 09, 2017, 12:59:43 PM
The universe has plenty of examples of "hardware without software." You get Vitamin D from one such example every day, assuming you go outside.
I just (finally) read through his posts, and I can assure you that he lives under a rock.

PickelledEggs

@challengeatheism
[mod]It seems like you aren't capable of anything other than copying and pasting your nonsense. When confronted, you pigheadedly disagree and copy/paste more nonsense.
I also asked you to make an intro thread to introduce yourself and to read the rules, which in the intro thread, you just told us to read about you in the link you provided.

Since you aren't holding a discussion and just copy pasting, you can continue your crap-tastic means of trying to convince us that you know what you're talking about in the section we dedicate to people like you.

Enjoy your stay in Purgatory.
[/mod]

If anyone would actually like to continue arguing with this guy and you don't have Purgatory access, message me or one of the mods and we'll let you have access

drunkenshoe

Quote from: challengeatheism on January 08, 2017, 10:31:55 AM
Is Intelligent Design based on gaps of knowledge and ignorance?

It is the lastest adaptation of theism to modern period. ID itself is a reaction to scientific progress. Without the process of the scientific progress in the 20th century, it wouldn't exist.

Why don't you just accept the traditional theistic approach yourself and go with creator did it, but desire to go with some sort of a more complicated adaptation of it?
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

trdsf

Quote from: PickelledEggs on January 09, 2017, 11:53:53 PM
If anyone would actually like to continue arguing with this guy and you don't have Purgatory access, message me or one of the mods and we'll let you have access
Aw.  And I was just about to do a text analysis to measure how much original content there was versus how much copypaste and plagiarism, and then of how much of the original material was grammatically correct.  An initial review suggests both numbers are less than 10%.

Funny thing is, the copied stuff isn't that much better off in terms of spelling and grammar.  Well, we already knew they weren't rocket scientists or brain surgeons.  Or brain scientists or rocket surgeons, for that matter.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

PickelledEggs

Quote from: trdsf on January 10, 2017, 12:21:07 PM
Aw.  And I was just about to do a text analysis to measure how much original content there was versus how much copypaste and plagiarism, and then of how much of the original material was grammatically correct.  An initial review suggests both numbers are less than 10%.

Funny thing is, the copied stuff isn't that much better off in terms of spelling and grammar.  Well, we already knew they weren't rocket scientists or brain surgeons.  Or brain scientists or rocket surgeons, for that matter.
So you want me to bring him back?

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